MGSA Website

Comments

  • I think we don't have to worry about the thread bumping thing yet. There's anyway a natural thing of trying to keep a thread closer to the top, but any abuse will probably be pretty obvious. I was ofc joking about having it "all Francois", that'd mean making something like 20 prototypes, having about 10 of them being naturally active at one point in time, and a little luck..... hm... 20 prototypes doesn't sound impossible...
  • I think it's worth wondering about winners winning more in terms of discovery.... Maybe people who don't win as much could do with a bit of help...

    How about - the lowest six on page one gets onto the front page? :) (assuming making that algorithm to integrate into the system isn't too hard)

    This way bumping can't get abused, and those with a lot of activity already doesn't really need more help, and those who are productive but don't get as much help get some help? :)
  • Isn't this only an issue that needs to be dealt with once the new site is up and only if it's actually desirable to have your thread there? I mean, more so that just bumping it to the top like "normal." Like, let's not try polish things before we have the prototype.
  • I'd like to see a feature for prototypes, where people can anonymously vote (thumbs up or down) if they feel the developer should continue investing time in the prototype or move on to something fresh. The result is only visible to the game designer. A general survey feature would be cool too. And for xmas I'd please like a.... mmmh
  • Tuism said:

    BTW I don't think we need as much space for news. I think games and events should hold prime real estate, along with the welcome content. I know it dominates the centre right now but I think it could easily be a lot smaller, I was following the template. What do you guys think?
    Remember, the news is more like "Announcements". I dunno, maybe your idea of having forum posts migrate to the news section isnt so bad after all. It's just for stuff like Events, you need a date, time, location etc. all of which are much easier inputted to the Wordpress backend.

    Anyway, mock us up something which has a different layout. Lets see what it looks like.
  • Hm? Not sure what you mean there, my idea is just to have forum posts be a central point of content creation rather than having to create content both in the forum and as WP posts. It can encompass news, events, everything. As it is now we're looking for a way to link from home page straight into forum posts rather than WP posts themselves.

    So the problem with the idea isn't so much in the merit of doing it, it's more in it being technically difficult and unreliable to implement, from what I understand of what you were talking about.

    As it is now, creating WP posts to front page, then using a workaround so that when people click on stuff on WP, it links to a forum post... That's a workaround which requires creating the same content in forum page and WP post, instead of creating just forum post then setting to show on homepage under whichever category.

    Also if there are updates needed to content, it'll have to be updated in the forum post (what we have as edit now) as well as WP post, which is an extra admin burden and potential point of mistakes.
  • I don't think there should be news at all. TBH. What's the value of news? Is news ever going to be something other than advertising an event (already covered by events).
  • Not sure if it was mentioned yet, but how about dedicating some of that "news" real estate to bios about local developers or to celebrate recent releases or successes - escpecially cool for games that started here as prototypes and went through the entire journey with the community?
  • Well that would require:
    a) A section dedicated to that - as in a category or something
    b) An impartial curator
    c) Someone to write content both retroactively to older stuff and the new stuff going forward.
  • Tuism said:
    That's a workaround which requires creating the same content in forum page and WP post, instead of creating just forum post then setting to show on homepage under whichever category.
    Nope, you'll create a WP post and it will automatically create a corresponding forum post. We could do it the other way around, but then you basically have a text-only input - no screenshots, no venue gps coordinates or anything rich in any way.

  • edited
    dislekcia said:
    I don't think there should be news at all. TBH. What's the value of news? Is news ever going to be something other than advertising an event (already covered by events).
    News would be for:
    * xxx just got greenlit, well done guys
    * we're running another tertiary education fundraiser, click here to donate
    * event happening tomorrow (yes debatable if we need to advertise events)
    * here are the games that were made during last weeks Ladum Dare
    * etc.

    Basically that sort of thing, plus anything that's stickied in the current forums.
  • Nitrogen said:
    Tuism said:
    That's a workaround which requires creating the same content in forum page and WP post, instead of creating just forum post then setting to show on homepage under whichever category.
    Nope, you'll create a WP post and it will automatically create a corresponding forum post. We could do it the other way around, but then you basically have a text-only input - no screenshots, no venue gps coordinates or anything rich in any way.

    And if something in the forum post needs to be updated? (happens fairly often) Would you edit the post and edit the WP post so the front page isn't out of date?

    And I assume we have to set a break point in the WP article so that on the front page it only shows a part of the whole article, which is the forum post.
  • edited
    Tuism said:

    And if something in the forum post needs to be updated? (happens fairly often) Would you edit the post and edit the WP post so the front page isn't out of date?

    And I assume we have to set a break point in the WP article so that on the front page it only shows a part of the whole article, which is the forum post.
    You'd edit the WP post as that's the master copy, we'd have to try have something that keeps the forum post in sync. Could be done. Otherwise you'll have to edit both for now.

    Dont worry about breakpoints, WP handles that all automatically with excerpts.
  • It's been a very long time since I've touched web design, but my feeling is that the front page is likely where people who are new to the site land up. I think it's important then to be clear about what it is we want the visitor to do, and what we want them to learn about us, without flooding them with information. I'm not sold on the two column thing on the bottom half of the page, and there's stuff there that's inconsistent, but overall I think it conveys the idea of a simpler layout with a more defined visual hierarchy and more white space.

    In my mind, the people who're regulars on MGSA would get what they need from the forum/discussions. Those who're visiting the site root should be told (1) who we are, (2) how they can get involved, (3) who they can contact for more information (in that order), with the stuff on the right side just there to show that we're active.

    image
  • Oh, and just because it's been bugging me for ages but now's probably the right time to bring it up:

    The logo at the top of the page currently says "South Africa Association of Game Makers", instead of "South African". <_<
    Thanked by 2dammit Tuism
  • Yep I agree with @Elyaradine's layout. I just took the stuff we already had and cleaned it up, what he's got is a good spot to be if we are able to make major layout changes.

    - I just would probably exchange those giant icons for bolder headings, and put links of each case under them. I think as long as the broad strokes of headings are established, what goes under each wouldn't be overwhelming because the bold headings are processed first mentally.
    - maybe put latest discussions under projects there, though it's true that that's probably not needed.
    - news is still contentious. It could split the top banner's space, or go above/below that (1 item max), or be done away with.
  • edited
    @Elyaradine It's a good start. It's very spartan though.
    I mostly agree with @Tuism's suggested changes:

    - Where is the list of recent forum posts?
    - Posting Etiquette should be a page on the forums, not on the homepage I'd say.
    - Where would you put announcements / banners?
    - How will "View South African Games" work? A list of posts, a list of forum threads?


    In any case, the theme that I've built allows certain layout changes on the homepage very easily. I've modified it to be a two column layout: http://mgsatest.nitrogenlab.com/
  • Oh, and just because it's been bugging me for ages but now's probably the right time to bring it up:

    The logo at the top of the page currently says "South Africa Association of Game Makers", instead of "South African". <_<
    Fixed :P

    Thanked by 1Tuism
  • So, to totally put a spanner in the works, have we looked at other association websites globally? For example: http://nzgda.com/ The NZ game dev society has a page showing off the games made.... the forum is less of the focus.

    Also, when is this happening?
  • dammit said:
    So, to totally put a spanner in the works, have we looked at other association websites globally? For example: http://nzgda.com/ The NZ game dev society has a page showing off the games made.... the forum is less of the focus.

    Also, when is this happening?
    Admin aside, I love that you can so easily see the studios and the games they've made.
    Thanked by 1dammit
  • Er, so, is this happening at some point?
  • Who are the main guys in charge of the website? Need to find them so that I can try motivate them to finish what they started :P
  • Or pay them, or pay someone else to make progress here?
  • dammit said:
    For example: http://nzgda.com/ The NZ game dev society has a page showing off the games made.... the forum is less of the focus.
    NZGDA has a fantastic site, but IMO, something like that is what the IESA site should be honestly, and not something MGSA should be attempting to cover :)

  • edited
    Pinging @dislekcia @LexAquillia @nitrogen - it's my understanding that MGSA the site now belongs to IESA, or at least will eventually. There is both goodwill and offer of expenses from the community to make the necessary front page changes to MGSA. As far as I can see the only hold-up is that no one is sure who has the keys or how to get access to them? Can we start a process to gain access and make this happen?
    Thanked by 1EvanGreenwood
  • I've mentioned this to @EvanGreenwood, but maybe it's worth mentioning here too: we (Clockwork Acorn) would potentially be able to do the website upgrades. We have spare capacity from the end of the month, and we've worked on similar projects before, so we could get the ball rolling at the start of June and get it handled ASAP. Unfortunately, we cannot afford to offer this for free, but if there's an offer to cover expenses it could be a good fit. Considering the announcment of an AGM and call for nominations, it might make sense to wait till that is done before moving forward, but we'd be happy to handle most of the admin so we can pretty much start as soon as that's handled.
    Thanked by 1EvanGreenwood
  • Hi all, so I do have physical access to the makegamessa.com servers to make these changes, given to me by @Fengol. What has stopped me proceeding further is that there was no cohesive voice telling me what to build. I proposed a Wordpress based site and built up a solution to around half-completion. But then there was debate over how the news and events should be handled (as forum posts vs wordpress posts) and this was never resolved.

    The project stalled as I did not want to build a system that some people would have an issue using, but also because we do not have a clear goal in mind for this site. Trying to cater to everyone's ideas and expectations is an exhausting exercise and I feel that unless there is a very clear idea of what we're trying to build, it's not going to be successful.
  • @Nitrogen: thanks for the info. In light of that, it seems like it would be very prudent to wait till after the AGM and stuff, especially considering the timeline of those. Then either IESA or a new committee can decide on the direction the site should take. If that is resolved, @Nitrogen, do you think you'll be able to complete the changes, or do you think you'll be short on time? I was under the impression that being short on time was the primary reason things hadn't progressed further, which is quite understandable for a volunteer-based solution, but seems like I might have been wrong.
  • edited
    In that case is it possible to have the landing page display "Recent Discussions" and remove some categories from the list? (like @Elyaradine suggested). So for the time being we would at least be burying meta-arguments a little bit.
  • do you think you'll be able to complete the changes, or do you think you'll be short on time? I was under the impression that being short on time was the primary reason things hadn't progressed further, which is quite understandable for a volunteer-based solution, but seems like I might have been wrong.
    Yes, time is also definitely one of the major factors in the stall, and it seems like I'm even more pressed for spare time these days than I was before. So I'm hesitant to promise to be available to complete it at the moment. Of course I'm more than willing to work with whoever and take them through what I've done and what still needs to be done for the site.

  • In that case is it possible to have the landing page display "Recent Discussions" and remove some categories from the list? (like @Elyaradine suggested). So for the time being we would at least be burying meta-arguments a little bit.
    Then you basically left with just the Recent Discussions list? http://mgsatest.nitrogenlab.com/
  • Hi @Nitrogen!

    I think the idea is to have Recent Discussions be the entry point to the forum everywhere we can, and then to be selective about which categories feed into Recent Discussions. (So, for example, there could be a Meta-discussions/Off-topic category that never shows up when you first visit the forum, but that you could go to if you explicitly wanted to read that stuff.) So hopefully game work would always be prominent, and we could move some of the topics that are likely to scare off newcomers into one of the harder-to-reach categories (perhaps a sub-category).

    So it's not so much about hiding the categories, as making the Recent Discussions prominent in whatever way we can. (In terms of removing a category, we'd perhaps not actually have an All Discussions category listed.)
  • Can there still be stickied posts in the recent discussions? I can't see anything in the example? I agree with what @Elyaradine is saying.
  • I really disagree that the forums should even be the landing page. The landing page should be showing off the games this community has made be what people first see - so they have any idea what this place is about - and give people a space where their work (even if it is never published on steam for example) still gets a place of pride and we build a sense of supportive community. Landing on forums is just a mess, imho, regardless.
  • @dammit I get the impression there's general agreement that the forums shouldn't be the landing point, I think the current discussion is pretty much about a band-aid to get meta discussions off the main forum page until larger changes can be made.
    Thanked by 2Tuism EvanGreenwood
  • edited
    @dammit: Yes, I completely agree.

    Just to clarify, when I talk about Recent Discussions being the entry point to everything to do with the forums, I don't mean that it would be the default when visiting www.makegamessa.com, the way it works right now. I mean that www.makegamessa.com/discussions or any other ambiguous URL in the forums should direct to a more tightly curated Recent Discussions, rather than All Discussions. (Right now, Recent Discussions and All Discussions seem to be the same thing on these forums, so by default you see everything, rather than placing a bigger focus on game projects.)

    We definitely do need a landing page, but for now, it looks like doing the Recent Discussions stuff is a pretty quick job (from what I was testing on my localhost anyway).
  • Agree with @dammit. That NZGDA landing page was great, I think we should be heading in that direction. I disagree that IESA is the better place for that (not that I object to having both sites follow that format).

    I think News and/or Games on the front page, with Studios, Events and Jobs as main categories right there works really well.
    Thanked by 1mattbenic
  • Ah, sorry, misunderstood the conversation. Great. Glad we're all headed in the same direction.
  • I think having a landing page of what's being made is cool. But I worry about the curation of the projects on the landing page.
    Thanked by 2francoisvn dammit
  • edited
    What about creating a process for submitting your project (info + assets), and a sticky post with who you give that to for approval.

    So if we want our stuff up there, we're responsible for making that happen, we don't rely on a curator having to go out scouring the net for content.
    Thanked by 2dammit Tuism
  • I think the issue of curation is more about limiting the content to some acceptable level of quality instead of acquisition (although acquisition is certainly also a potential issue). Do we want to allow early prototypes? Where do we draw the line between a very early prototype and a game we want on the landing page? If the approach is to include any and everything then there's no issue, but personally I would think having some minimum level of "quality" is better.
    Thanked by 1garethf
  • edited
    Perhaps "what is a good measure of what should be on the landing page and shouldn't?" could be a question we ask of NZGDA? Perhaps this is a solved problem (there's probably no perfect solution however, but if we're willing to invest substantial time on it perhaps there could be a democratized vote up for projects).

    For now, is there a quick bandaid solution to changing how the main list of discussions (and current landing page) displays? Is this something that someone can spend an evening doing tweaks (if they have access to the forums)? Or is this something much more involved that we need to wait on someone to have a large block of time free?
    Thanked by 2mattbenic Tuism
  • Thanks for the meta category and getting it filtered out of the landing page of discussions, great stuff :)
    Thanked by 1Nitrogen
  • edited
    Something that was brought up today, that's probably been brought up before, and is obviously a lot of work, is developing a kind of directory system for games companies (so that each company can add itself to the directory and manage it's page, a bit like what existed at the old SAGD).

    There is a directory of sorts in that "Companies that do outsourced work" thread. The idea would be to build a more formalized directory that provides that same functionality (and is more) and is more community driven.

    As connecting SA game development companies with clients is one of the most immediately useful things the MGSA website has been doing, I like the idea of investing more in this functionality.

    This is of course a lot of work. But we might have the resources.
  • I envisioned this as part of a larger system. We could run a Wordpress site similar to Ladum Dare where people can sign up for a page to manage - We could have a projects / gallery section where they could blog about a specific project they working on, and of course a directory of companies each with a little page about what they do and what they're providing / looking for.

    If the community as a whole is behind this idea then we can look at going forward, but it's no use spending lots of effort building something that will not be welcomed onto the site.
  • edited
    @Nitrogen Yeah, it'd be rad to have something like that.

    Though I think it might be difficult figuring out what the consensus is in a thread like this.

    I think maybe we should leave it up to the committee (should a committee be elected) or IESA (should the MGSA committee be disbanded forever). It'll be a lot easier to reach consensus with 6 or so individuals than with a whole forum, and the committee will be elected (or disbanded) in the next couple weeks.

    Assuming the committee is in charge of making this decision, they can look through the suggestions here and figure out what the community wants.
  • @EvanGreenwood

    I agree completely, trying to get consensus is the main reason why these things have stalled in the past. So we'll look to the committee to figure out what the community needs / wants :)
    Thanked by 1EvanGreenwood
  • Can we make this topic sticky please? Its pretty valuable and speaks volumes to the future of the MGSA online presence.
  • edited
    Suggestion: Curation/Moderation versus Democratisation.

    It would be really cool if moderation could be "crowd-sourced", to lift burden from individuals who have a conflict of interest when it comes to being a leader and required to moderate while also wanting to be a "consumer" of these forums who wants "neutral" engagement and unbiased feedback etc.

    It might be useful having an anonymous thumbs-up, thumbs-down/ mechanic for threads/posts/other content, where the general users of these forums can up/down vote to highlight/remove content instead of the burden falling upon a single person/group? Non-relevant/undesired content will auto filter to lower visibility based on popular consensus where removal is democratically justified. Human intervention will always be required, but having content flagged should make the task a lot easier for the task bearers as well.

    This might have been considered before, so apologies if I am repeating.

    I also agree with displaying the real success stories of our community more prominently on a new MGSA site.
    They deserve the limelight and we need our idols, otherwise there's just chaos. ;-P

    Excited for what the future will bring for the new MGSA site! It's been fun so far and I'm looking forward to the evolution.

    Edit: Yep, seen the democratised vote-up mentioned in previous post. Happy with that.
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