[Project] Cadence: Road to Steam

Comments

  • Just my 2 cents worth. When I read through the kickstarter page, I just got a sense of "Here is our game, we poured a lot of work into it and now we want payback". And while I agree that you put a lot of effort into it and do surely deserve all the payback you receive, I think this is one of the reasons the kickstarter campaign didn't succeed. Yes it did seem a bit "us" centric as you mentioned, not giving the potential backers enough reason to back. What the kind guys and gals are trying to say is that you missed your mark once by thinking that you are targeting the right market in the right way and failed and are concerned that this is what will happen again. I don't think it's wise to try and shift your focus every time you think you've figured out what a particular target market wants. Instead focus on the broader picture of what "most" of your target enjoys, and nail that hard!
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  • So, I wasn't at the meetup last night so you might have to catch me up a little. What did you guys learn of your target market? I mean, from my point of view it looks like you had a very specific audience in mind. For me it looked like you targeted the niche of content creators for the Kickstarter. This didn't make a lot of sense to me since you already had a brilliant product that catered to a much larger audience. This is of course through my own lenses with goals I perceive you have(which might be completely incorrect).

    A little bit clearer...my question is this. Who was your target audience before Kickstarter, and who is your target audience now? Also, if the audience has changed, how have your strategies adapted(..if you have had time to adapt)?
    Thanked by 2dammit EvanGreenwood
  • Okay so I've been thinking about this a bit more, here are the truths I'm taking away from the feedback:

    Our message wasn't right
    • We lacked clarity in our vision. ( eg why is this for me? Does backing this make me part of a larger cause? )
    • We highlighted our hard work because it shows attention to detail and helps build confidence that we’re going to be able to deliver a winner. Instead that made us seem entitled. Which sucks, because we were trying hard to avoid that.
    • The game already looks finished. I’m not sure this is entirely wrong, all the most successful original I.P. Kickstarters show vertical slices that sparkle they are so polished. But these games (Hyper Light Drifter, Night in Woods etc) manage to capture the imagination with their vivid worlds. Is something like that even possible with Cadence? I’m not sure.
    • There was a degree of losing sight of the forest for the trees. We were so focused on trying to check all the boxes (of which there are about a million) that didn’t allow us much perspective to for the 10000 yard view. But before you say it, we did gather specific and focused feedback as best as our time allowed. We even got advice from Kert Gartner (the video game trailer guy) on our video. And it shows because the final endlessly-iterated video you see is infinitely better than the first draft. So I’m happy that we put forth our best marketing effort to date! Unfortunately small miracles and working your guts out doesn’t mean you got it right or entitle you to any kind of success. And that sucks, but is a fact of life.
    Creativity isn’t worth focusing on.
    • So why are we trying to focus on this in the first place? For the same reason that Minecraft is the biggest game on the planet.
    • There is doubt that the synths are bringing value to game. In the way we are currently presenting it, certainly. Right now we’re showing people “the voxel engine”. That’s exciting for us because the potential is obvious, but as yet we haven’t shown anyone how they can use the voxels to build their own worlds – this deficiency is now glaringly obvious to us.
    • There is doubt that we aren’t reading our target audience correctly, eg why would people care about making music over just a game? Well initially we assumed it would be hardcore musician types who would care most about this. As such we were very self aware about the competency of the music tools. But we realise now that these people already have tools far more competent than anything we could ever muster. Also instead of being critical of the quality our music capabilities, they are just happy we’re making a game that cares about music.

      As for the 11 year old girl on the other hand? What access and facility does she have to hardcore computer software that is used to make music? If we take a game that she already understands and then give her a way to feel like she’s created music with that, well then that is empowering! Suddenly her time with the game is going to become a lot more meaningful.
    • But until we actually test any of this and gather concrete feedback, we won’t know.
    We are course adjusting.
    • The ambition for our level editing tools is much more contained. Instead of trying to invent new ways of making music, we’re simply want to expose the systems that we’ve already created and give players a way to mess with that. The fact remains a level editor is still our most requested feature.
    • We know now that the game is a niche game. This means it’s not for everybody, but the people who love it really love it. That is feedback and learning we didn’t have before we started.


    THE REAL ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM:

    So it’s very easy to look at what is publicly presented on a Kickstarter page and nitpick and say “oh they didn’t do that, obviously that is why they failed” (like SA press chastising us for our lack of demo, which when released made zero tangible difference). And that is what most KS advice focuses on. Do this, don’t do that. Check all these boxes. But very little advice focus on the truth that Kickstarter success is a multiplier of how many people you can effectively reach. Despite everything our biggest failing was this one fact:

    Only 9900 people watched the video.

    Now consider we got 500 backers. If we could have gotten 1500 backers we would have funded. Are there enough people out there in world, certainly! Did we reach them, no. And it’s obvious why. We had almost no amplification of the game beyond our own circles. Besides two features on RPS (thanks guys) we've had zero international coverage.
    And whose fault is that? Ours. We were so focused on getting our campaign out the door that we were completely unprepared for targeting press and youtubers. Considering that one mid size let’s player can deliver tens of thousands of eyeballs, that is simply criminal on our part.

    If the campaign had been pitch perfect this kind of coverage might have taken care of itself. The fabled viral marketing effect. But once momentum died we were totally unprepared for the work needed to get it going again, not to mention being spread very thin over two festivals in a foreign country that delivered us very few press/youtuber introductions.

    And that’s the grand irony, with the audience we've fought so hard for on Kickstarter, we’d be much more likely to succeed even if we launched exactly the same campaign. We now have a small measure of “brand recognition” that simply didn’t exist when we started. While relaunching on Kickstarter is an option, I don’t think my soul would survive a second campaign. But also, we’re listening. People keep saying why do you need the kickstarter this looks done? Well it’s definitely not done (by anyone’s standards, not just mine) but we’re taking that as a sign we should get to market as soon as possible. So here we are. The Noodlestarter won't make nearly as much as the KS, but hey at least it will allow us to keep going until we get this exactly right.
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    Okay so I've been thinking about this a bit more, here are the truths I'm taking away from the feedback:

    Our message wasn't right

    [*] The game already looks finished. I’m not sure this is entirely wrong, all the most successful original I.P. Kickstarters show vertical slices that sparkle they are so polished. But these games (Hyper Light Drifter, Night in Woods etc) manage to capture the imagination with their vivid worlds. Is something like that even possible with Cadence? I’m not sure.

    On this point, I wonder if when you analysed the successful campaigns that you looked at their campaign message? Yes, there's a lot of underlying things about all the campaigns that no one from the outside is privy to, but it did seem that when you analysed the data from the campaigns you focused on things in isolation. I'm taking this conclusion based on what you showed in your talk (that certain tiers of pricing work) and this comment that successful campaigns had polished looking games. But what were offered at the different pricing tiers? What was it that made people spend an extra $5 past the previous tier? How were each tiers framed? And how was the polish the game framed in the polished looking campaigns?

    I know you're not planning on running another kickstarter, but this thread is going to be (and probably already is) a useful resource for future kickstarter-attempts.


    Creativity isn’t worth focusing on.
    [*] So why are we trying to focus on this in the first place? For the same reason that Minecraft is the biggest game on the planet.
    I'm not sure I understand what you mean by that statement. And does this mean you're continuing to focus on creativity even though you're saying it's not worth focusing on?

    [*] There is doubt that the synths are bringing value to game. In the way we are currently presenting it, certainly. Right now we’re showing people “the voxel engine”. That’s exciting for us because the potential is obvious, but as yet we haven’t shown anyone how they can use the voxels to build their own worlds – this deficiency is now glaringly obvious to us.
    [*] There is doubt that we aren’t reading our target audience correctly, eg why would people care about making music over just a game? Well initially we assumed it would be hardcore musician types who would care most about this. As such we were very self aware about the competency of the music tools. But we realise now that these people already have tools far more competent than anything we could ever muster. Also instead of being critical of the quality our music capabilities, they are just happy we’re making a game that cares about music.
    Does this mean you're changing focus to target puzzle lovers? And changing the message of your marketing to be about the game rather than the tool?

    As for the 11 year old girl on the other hand? What access and facility does she have to hardcore computer software that is used to make music? If we take a game that she already understands and then give her a way to feel like she’s created music with that, well then that is empowering! Suddenly her time with the game is going to become a lot more meaningful.
    I still get a strong focus here on the synthesiser. What about the possibility that the market is just more interested in the game itself?


    THE REAL ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM:

    So it’s very easy to look at what is publicly presented on a Kickstarter page and nitpick and say “oh they didn’t do that, obviously that is why they failed” (like SA press chastising us for our lack of demo, which when released made zero tangible difference). And that is what most KS advice focuses on. Do this, don’t do that. Check all these boxes. But very little advice focus on the truth that Kickstarter success is a multiplier of how many people you can effectively reach. Despite everything our biggest failing was this one fact:

    Only 9900 people watched the video.

    I'm going to acknowledge again that, like everyone here without inside information, that this is all speculative which is why having this conversation with you is so important. No one is out to chastise you (well, no one here...I can't speak for the SA press).

    On the numbers thing, you've got about a 5% conversion rate there. And from some brief internet searches, that seems like a pretty solid number (apparently it does range from 2% to 15%, but these are project dependant). So yeah, the conclusion that you needed more traffic to the page, more eyes on the video, would have gotten you the numbers you needed seems like a solid conclusion.

    I'm still not sure that even GDC press and gamer-focused press, though, would have done this. Because your game is niche, I hope you look to other avenues for reaching your target market. I could be wrong about this though.

    Of course, the flip side of this argument is that Ancient Terrible things was backed in total by only 709 people...But boardgames are tricky to compare to PC games because people inherently value them differently. It's also their second campaign and I'm sure the majority of their marketing was just to previous backers rather than to the stock standard press.

    If the campaign had been pitch perfect this kind of coverage might have taken care of itself. The fabled viral marketing effect. But once momentum died we were totally unprepared for the work needed to get it going again, not to mention being spread very thin over two festivals in a foreign country that delivered us very few press/youtuber introductions.
    I don't think there's anyway to have the "viral marketing effect" without first kicking that off with just normal marketing - because you still need to get those first eyes on the project. Relying on a "pitch perfect" kickstarter will probably kick anyone in the ass in the end. Of course, there are exceptions, but I don't think any SA dev is going to fall into that category.


    Thanked by 1dislekcia
  • This sort of thinking is always a good idea and I wish you all the luck in the world in coming up with a way to sell Cadence more (which is a completely different problem than designer more Cadence, as I'm sure you know).
    The ambition for our level editing tools is much more contained. Instead of trying to invent new ways of making music, we’re simply want to expose the systems that we’ve already created and give players a way to mess with that. The fact remains a level editor is still our most requested feature.
    This worries me a bit. Just because a feature is requested doesn't mean that it's going to help sell the game. Generally, features are requested by people that are ALREADY keen on the game, that feature they're asking for cannot be the reason they picked the game up initially.

    The most requested thing for DD has changed over the years, it used to be an infinite locker system, these days it's DLC. Neither of those things is going to help us sell the game to a wider audience, which is still our major thing we need to do with the game to earn more. Adding requested features for existing players CAN be useful if you have a large player base already and catering to them is going to get you coverage and put you in front of new players (via Steam front page presence due to DLC sales, or media coverage for a much-requested feature, etc) but you'd be better off asking your current players why they picked up the game in the first place than assuming their requested features will entice new players.

    I imagine that putting the music creation possibilities of Cadence into context would maybe be a better driver of interest right now: Either releasing videos of you producing Cadence levels (even in an unpolished editor!) that sound like hooks from popular songs; Or maybe even making puzzles that have potential solutions that sound like popular song hooks, so that people are inherently remixing as they explore different solutions. Videos of either of those could reach out to people who are ripe for being intrigued by your puzzle mechanics.
    Thanked by 2dammit Tuism
  • The simplest TL;DR is that we put part-time work into a full-time job. The KS was set up quickly to capitalise on the opportunities we perceived, and both the preparation and the campaign took place at a time when both Peter and myself were juggling other commitments.

    We appreciate the feedback, but Peter's "elephant" is actually pretty much spot on. We didn't do enough raw work. Our preparations for Youtube players, in particular, were very weak (and striking solidly there is miles more important than pretty much anything else). We started on many things DURING the campaign that should have been done before.

    et cetera, et cetera.

    If I had to deliver a presentation on running a KS now, I'd have the words "TWO TO THREE MONTHS OF FULL-TIME WORK" filling up about fifty pages of slides and just ask people to repeat the statement with me for +-20 minutes. ;)
  • edited
    Nandrew said:
    We appreciate the feedback, but Peter's "elephant" is actually pretty much spot on. We didn't do enough raw work. Our preparations for Youtube players, in particular, were very weak (and striking solidly there is miles more important than pretty much anything else). We started on many things DURING the campaign that should have been done before.
    The bolded part scares me, especially seeing how broken Peter was at GDC. I get what you're saying and it's fine as long as the takeaway is "we could have put the time we did have towards other priorities" (and I agree here that youtube is crazy important) and not "we should have worked even harder than what already fucking killed us".

    There's only so much more work you can do in terms of piling on raw hours... I think that's why people are asking what you're prioritising now and why.
    Nandrew said:
    If I had to deliver a presentation on running a KS now, I'd have the words "TWO TO THREE MONTHS OF FULL-TIME WORK" filling up about fifty pages of slides and just ask people to repeat the statement with me for +-20 minutes. ;)
    Do this pls.
  • Just to add this as a resource for people looking for kickstarter insights at a later date;
    http://www.psychologyofgames.com/2015/03/psychology-and-kickstarters/
    Thanked by 1Tuism
  • More kickstarter articles - this one focusing on the difference (and success rates) between stretch goals and achievements

    http://stonemaiergames.com/kickstarter-lesson-145-achievements-vs-stretch-goals/
  • Have you guys considered starting a Patreon?
    Thanked by 1dammit
  • Hrm, Patreon is an interesting model. My knee jerk reaction is that it's the wrong kind of transaction - because Cadence isn't something that's going to be delivering periodic content in the same way say a writer or comic book artist would. Also it seems to me the effort of building a sustainable "patreonage" is considerable - perhaps even more than Kickstarter? Willing to receive more enlightenment on the matter though?
    Thanked by 1Elyaradine
  • edited
    Patreon is for anyone creating content. It can be art, videos, podcasts, games, blog posts, etc. There's an option to receive a set donation amount per piece of content created (in our case each comic page, in your case maybe each update) or a monthly contribution. I see many artists using it just as a monthly supplement for their private work and are up front about it. The patrons sometimes get rewards but many times they're happy just supporting the creators they love. Some nice rewards include being sent stuff, for me it's easy because we can send doodles on postcards and do art livestreams. You can check out a few successful pages to get an idea of what works. But like I say, usually people are just happy to contribute, even if it's 1 or 2 dollars per piece of content. It all adds up.

    People can also put a cap on their donations so they don't go over a certain amount per month. Here's our one. A quick search yielded these two for creating video games. I see they're both using the monthly payment structure.

    I would say just make one and have it there. There's nothing to lose really, it's free, and should people want an easy way to donate and keep up with your progress, the option is there. We have a Patreon footer that we put on our blog posts and updates, a link on our site, and we remind readers now and then via social media that the option is there.

    It's been carrying us through months. Pays for my medication and also electricity. We make sure to tell our patrons how grateful we are to them as often as we can!

    (Also - the majority of our patrons are people we'd never heard of before they started donating. You might be surprised at the reaction.)
  • It's interesting model indeed. Having looked at those I still can't help the feeling that time investment vs reward simply isn't right for Cadence (and that's okay - it's better to realise these things before you spend the effort). I can think of a lot of video game creators I've met recently though who this is the perfect model for - people making quirky little artgames beyond the fringes of commercial viability. The fact that they are small allows them to be nimble, and the patreons get to feel like their contribution is actually making a difference. Glad a platform like this in that case! ;)
  • Alright. I'm still hoping to see Cadence become a huge success. It's a charming game and I think it'll do well once released.
  • edited
    This looks soooooo rad! As someone who uses Ableton to do loop based prototyping, the new interface looks like a way more user-friendly and simpler way of doing things.

    Just add more time signatures/loop types and the ability to go off-key when you want and its golden! :)
    Thanked by 2TheFuntastic BenJets
  • If this was my IP I would do this right now:
    Figure out multiple sources of marketing and cross sales promotion with the IP itself and try to sell it sooner than later...ie sweat this asset! Asap.

    I liked to play it at EGE, it did not look like a typical game though, but I feel it has a lot of potential outside of the gaming space, the space you are testing it in a lot right now is as a game.

    So I would launch 2 spin offs of Cadence ( with cross promotion) in:
    1. The art scene ( think mega hologram interactive art ) try and do free JV at an art exhibit permanent basis. Could even be main attraction.
    2. Synthisizer app / product which is not a game.

    This may just give you the means to launch the game you want to make which is a lot more work than these options.
  • So the Cadence Steam page is now up. This could have been up months ago, but there is a surprising amount of i's to dot and t's to cross to make it happen. The main purpose of this really is just to make sure people add it to their Wishlists and we aren't losing any more eyeballs that have already forgotten about us.

    This is however also a first draft of our final store page. The trailer is totally placeholder, but I'd like to know what your first impressions of the marketing copy on the page are. Anything concerns you want to know that we're not addressing?
    http://store.steampowered.com/app/362800
  • So the Cadence Steam page is now up. This could have been up months ago, but there is a surprising amount of i's to dot and t's to cross to make it happen. The main purpose of this really is just to make sure people add it to their Wishlists and we aren't losing any more eyeballs that have already forgotten about us.

    This is however also a first draft of our final store page. The trailer is totally placeholder, but I'd like to know what your first impressions of the marketing copy on the page are. Anything concerns you want to know that we're not addressing?
    http://store.steampowered.com/app/362800
    I must admit that it's difficult to give "organic" first impressions as (1) I already know what cadence is and (2) I've actually played the game at various stages and (3) I have seen the kickstarter and the (4) trailer before (didn't actually check if it was a new one...).

    Anyway, I will throw my two cents in and you can take it or leave as you please.

    First, I would wonder why all the screen shots and images are toned pink. I'm all for all colours for all things, but I wonder if this may be off putting to some (just because of this historical use of pink). If they're all placeholders, what are your plans with your screenshots?
    You've been playing games most of your life. (1) You've been listening to music even longer. Wouldn't it be great if making music was as easy as playing a game(2)? Cadence lets you draw shapes as music. Let your imagination run free with the PC's first music sandbox game.
    (1) - This immediately may cut out a huge audience if they don't feel they've been playing games for a long time, then maybe this isn't for them
    (2) - I would lead with this, personally. It's your unique selling point, if i'm not mistaken?

    I would offer this as a first draft quick hash rewrite:
    What if making music was as easy as playing a game? What if connecting nodes to make shapes made the most beautiful sounds? What if there was a game that let you really play with music?
    Cadence is the PCs first music sandbox game that'll let your imagination run free.
    Thanked by 2TheFuntastic garethf
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