South African Game Developers Facebook Group
Hi Guys,we now have 54 members...
There are a couple of really interesting projects that have been posted.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/441467282713665/
There are a couple of really interesting projects that have been posted.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/441467282713665/
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
All of that happens here, however, and I honestly feel you're doing a disservice to the people that have joined your group by giving them a feeling of having joined something that actually isolates them from the larger community. Here on MGSA you have access to information and skills earned over decades of development (individually) and loads of knowledge gleaned from other sources. Here on MGSA there are successful developers with connections to the international and local game industries that can create opportunities for developers with otherwise no reputation whatsoever - devs have been put in direct contact with Apple, Google payment woes have been sorted out, Steam and KS campaigns polished and pushed, international competitions entered and marketing materials dry run before they hit the public eye... And then there's the feedback and playtesting that helps any game be the best it can be - or that helps devs learn when to perhaps kill one of their darlings to afford living to dev another day.
There's also IESA, an industry body that's actively lobbying government to the benefit of its game developer members right now. IESA is working on funding for trade missions to large international games events, helping local developers get better access to local events and pushing back against the FPB's terrible draft regulation. If you're a professional game developer and not a member of IESA, then you're missing out on a lot of benefits. And not helping other developers all get more as well - think of it like herd immunity and vaccinations... Also, while IESA and MGSA are linked, you don't have to be a member of one to be part of the other. Both are welcoming and open to anyone willing to participate.
I don't see any of that on the FB group you linked, that's why I wouldn't join it. How could you make it better? Is it worth trying to compete, or is there more value to be had by directing people here?
Some of them tried and some of them came back a few times but eventually just left due to various factors.
Maybe these people are more comfortable on Facebook and would rather post the items on Facebook where their friends can see it and comment.
At this point in time, if things don't change on Make Games SA, you are going to see a lot more of these type of pages spring up and a lot more people going there instead of coming here ... once again the reasons are not important as this would just make the thread derail and is not something I want to discuss in a public thread.
There is something fundamentally flawed with Make Games SA that is driving people away.
Unfortunately my experiences of Make Games SA does not tend to lead me to believe that Make Games SA is a community ... actually a few people I have spoken to and some of those who will not post on Make Games SA feel that this has become more of a kingdom run by a few select individuals ... and is definitely not a community.
I fully anticipate this post being deleted and I will probably get a warning ... although I have done nothing to go against the rules of the forums which will probably prove my point by itself ... but this is also my last post here because I honestly can't see anything changing.
Good luck to you all and thanks for all the fish.
Am I just making games to get a feeling for what it's like. Much like someone who appreciates fine art taking up an art class to see what it's like working with the medium. I'm not expecting to paint a master piece, but during the process I do catch myself dreaming of standing in my own gallery with hundreds of people admiring my work. It's a nice feeling, and to that end, it's serving it's purpose. My friends and family will often play along with this fantasy, because being completely honest about my art is far less important to them than my happiness.
So I post it on Facebook and Instagram. Safe spaces, viewed mostly by online friends, were I know the delicate fantasy will be sustained. I most certainly won't be posting it on a high end professional art forum, because getting professional feedback and critique for the purposes of improving was never the aim.
However, if I want to make games that are of such high quality that I can sell them, and the income of those sales are sufficient to sustain me so I can continue doing so, then I'm playing a completely different ball game. My opponents are skilled and talented, and my clients care nothing for me, only the quality of the product I produce. It is a profession that has low success rates, and in South Africa it's even worse.
So in order to survive, I need to become better, faster! I post on MGSA where I know I'll find some of the best game developers in South Africa. Their critiques often hurt like hell. I regularly used to stand up and say: "Screw this, I'm out!". But when I eventually got over myself, sat down and calmly read the comments again, I found it was never personal. It was always aimed at improving my game by pointing out the most glaring issues, issues my clients would see as well, issues I don't see because I'm too close.
These people genuinely care about my success as a game developer, and they care about me as a person. I've met a lot them, and they are all stunning people.
But there are so little of us, and when a community is small they have to coordinate their effort in order to make an impact. Fragmenting the community over several forums and websites only dilutes the experience and talent. We have to agree on a place to get together and discuss things, a place where the experience and feedback can be focused and shared.
For me, being part MGSA is a desire to increase the number of quality games that come from South Africa. I will do everything I can to help anyone wanting to improve their game development skills, but I will do it from here, so they'll know where to find me. MGSA is a beacon, and we should all try and make it shine brighter.
I had a look a that Facebook group.
I think some of the members of that group would find it hostile here. The most prolific, and I think the leader, regularly posts what I would call sexist content.
I wish that MakeGamesSA wasn't seen as as hostile as it is. But I guess my question is: When is hostility justified? (if ever?)
Should MakeGamesSA have a culture? Or should the leadership focus on making everyone feel welcome? (I mean that, what do we want as a forum? Is it somewhere in between?).
From my perspective anyway, if MakeGamesSA does have a culture I would want it to be intolerant of sexism. I feel that it's the case that tolerating sexism alienates others who are sensitive to it. But if these forums are intolerant to sexism then these forums are going to feel hostile to some people.
Are there other attitudes regularly expressed here that are causing people to feel unwelcomed? (I'm actually not sure what people find hostile here enough to leave, is it just some individuals they don't like? Am I a part of this?).
Sorry if this comes across as argumentative. I'm not meaning to say the hostility people find at MakeGamesSA is just about the issue of sexism. I'm also not meaning to equate @quintond with the people who have left these forums because they were criticized for seeming to display sexist attitudes.
I think @Pieter put what I'd really liked to have said best. That I come to MakeGamesSA because I think it is the most powerful social tool for improving game development in South Africa. I've had arguments here and I've felt embarrassed and ostracized. But I'm not here because I want to feel good about myself, I'm here because I am a professional game developer in this country and I want to pursue that dream help those that share that dream.
(And of course I'd like MakeGamesSA to serve that goal even better where it is possible, and including more people in the community can make everyone stronger)
I have watched a presentation of @dislekcia and he does not come across the same way I pictured him at all. His posts often look very aggressive but he means good (From what I can see)
Regarding other communities such as the facebook group I personally think its a good idea because I feel that a lot of other devs aren't as serious as those that post often on MakeGamesSA and by telling them its stupid I am sure they will just avoid it even more to come here.
I don't think makegames is the best place to get help because a lot of guys don't reply to some topics and there is also not a big enough variety in skillsets to resolve every solution.
What I have found makegames very useful for is posting projects, getting feedback and also getting motivation by checking out what others have made. I have not been at any MakeGames event but I am sure that it is what makes this forum alive but I think it is indeed a little bit tricky for those of us that haven't been to any event to truly understand the way that some users on the forum present themselves with their criticism.
I will be hanging around here and I am sure this forum will one day be bigger and better.
One major thing I sometimes wonder is why some of the big devs or hard working devs aren't active on these forums or never even tried. Guys like Sebastian Lague. Would have loved to have him on these forums as he is truly a good teacher when it comes to Unity.
I think @EvanGreenwood asks some really interesting questions about where lines are drawn and what sorts of behaviors are accepted in a community or not. I'd really like to unpack that discussion, because it's one that's very worth having. At the same time, that doesn't mean that I don't care why people leave either, I think that there are multiple spectra of people feeling discouraged or unwelcome and I'm still learning how and why those feelings come about. My biggest focus right now is on making MGSA more welcoming to people that are traditionally marginalised or discriminated against and, as such, I'm probably not very likely to respond super favorably to complaints from advantaged individuals as much. But that doesn't mean those complaints can't be heard! So I'm sorry for giving that impression.
And that's perfectly fine. I was giving my personal reasons why I wouldn't join that FB group, not attacking the people who had :) I agree. There are things that are wrong with MGSA that drive people away, probably the biggest one is that MGSA is really bad at communicating its reasons for existing and the assumptions that underlie it - this is why people have the disappointment of realising that this community doesn't align with expectations they had of it. That's why people leave, because MGSA doesn't give them a thing they felt they really needed - that doesn't mean that the things MGSA does offer and actively support are bad/worse, and it also doesn't mean that people's needs that are unfulfilled are bad (unless, as @EvanGreenwood points out, those needs are about being horrible to other people), just that MGSA isn't a good place for absolutely everything. Which it could never be.
I do find it interesting that this thing of other communities/places to discuss things springing up is a common thread. It's been happening for over a decade now. And yet, where are the other communities? Why didn't they stick around? What happened to them and why did they stop? What makes MGSA different? (I have some thoughts on this, thoughts that could fill a decade's worth of introspection, but I'm curious about the answers to these questions that others might see)
If you'd like to discuss those things in private, PM is always an option. Well... It is a community, by the very definition you provided :) It might not include everyone, but it's trying to be helpful to as many people as possible. That's certainly what I've been trying to do for over a decade now - build a place like that. Unfortunately you can't build solid things online, this isn't a physical structure, it's a nebulous gas of people sharing things they're working on and trying to improve. That's complicated, people will always change and goals will never quite align, so it needs constant effort to maintain a community culture and identity in the online space. It also means that this sort of discussion need to be had regularly (and maybe larger things have changed that need responding to as well! This is all useful!)
I think the kingdom accusation is fair. I mean, yeah, guilty as charged I guess. Interestingly, I feel that MGSA as a community was damaged by trying to mitigate that "kingdom" feeling and putting more people in charge: It meant that the vision was never clear and decisive action couldn't be taken, I believe that we're seeing the fallout of that approach to both forum arguments and to larger MGSA activities off the forums. I mean, the hatred of "leadership" positions and the lack of understanding of just how little power comes from them is a constant thing in online communities. It doesn't matter if it's a knitting newsgroup, neighborhood FB page or joke forum: There will always be people who dislike the people seen to be leaders; There will always be people who believe they could do a better job; And there will always be criticisms that extend beyond the functions and responsibilities of "power" and attack the person instead. That sort of polarisation is a given on the internet...
I will say that 10+ years is a hell of a long time in internet years (yes, I trace Game.Dev and MGSA together) that means that there's definitely something here. There's something positive and useful and, given the nature of the internet, that's often found in the most contentious and polarising elements of a culture. MGSA has had a huge positive impact on the local game development scene - that means that parts of it appear to be working. I'm always open to discussing where it might not be working and how it could be working BETTER, that's a given. But there's success that's been had and things that exist now that wouldn't without the "kingdom" of the MGSA, even if all that happened is MGSA acted as a nucleus for ideas and people.
Yes, a new FB group could well be a great place too. But, as I said, those were my reasons for not joining it :) ... And no, I'm not hostile to new groups forming, I just ask what they're supposed to achieve - I think IESA is a great idea. I think a really supportive and emotionally open FB group focused on simply acknowledging potential game developers and their efforts might work out (I know it would be incredibly hard to keep that way though) and if that's a need in the local game development space, all the power to the people who want to fill it! But that's not the thing that's made MGSA survive and succeed the way it has - you could easily accuse me of a certain distrust of emotional belonging. Well, does being wrong about the warning/deletion mean you might not be leaving? ;)
And yes, I'd love see what Sebastian could add. I've used his tutorials quite a bit over the last few months :)
What kinds of harm can a group do?
I have black guys, women, old guys, young 18 year olds, moslems, christians etc...nobody seems to be angry, hostile etc etc... In fact, it is one of 3 rules in my group...Putting another developer or company down is not tolerated and will result in a banning...People like that...
As for your answer, there are many ways an online group of people could cause harm, I asked you what you think those might be to see if you're thinking about that sort of stuff. If you'd like to talk about the sorts of harm a group can cause, from someone with 11 years of experience of being wrong about online groups and slowly learning, ping me via PM or FB :)
@Julian, your group sounds cool, I'll join it. If it sucks I will leave it.
This message could be seen as angry it could even be seen as directed at Julian. However neither of those are the case. If misunderstanding creates the gaps imagine just how easy it is to create gaps with text.
1. No insulting Game Developers or Gaming Organisations
2. No sexist, political or Racial Slander of a non satirical game development nature
3. Keep topics SA game development related
My members love the freedom
It was previously stated by members of your group that you see the two communities co-existing, so any cross-pollination of links should be fine.
To be clear, MGSA is not "trying to go to government". IESA, which is a separate organization to allow MGSA to focus on what it does best (community building), is working towards goals that benefit all game developers in the country, funded by those that have been successful enough to contribute.
Just like me not going to MGSA meetings isn't an indication that I don't WANT to -- I've been bad about actually meeting up at any meetings - can't seem to pull myself away from my PC ...
Although I have my issues with some parts of MGSA, I actually also have issues with some parts of your group. That does NOT mean anything at all - it's human nature, everyone's different and has different tastes - there's no possible way for there to be a group that's "one shoe fits all" it's just impossible - you can't please everyone. Something, about everything, will always annoy someone - and sometimes there's be transient annoyance by pretty much everyone at something, in any group - that's just the nature of people.
Honestly I think all collectives just strengthen the whole and each will find it's own niche probably for the benefit of both since there are now multiple entry points of locating game developers in South Africa.
That said ... this: "Why makegamesa is recruiting members in my group" is just rude, that's exactly what you've done here.
"MGSA are the only members that have not followed my 3 rules"
I have been in your group. Please explain to me how I have broken any of your 3 rules because I happen to be a MGSA member. (As in actively posts on the forums here)
EDIT: I would have expected a lot more maturity from the "leader" of a page that represents South African Game Developers. Maturity would mean that you would hold the interest of everyone involved that could have potentially been part of your group, already is part of the group and even those that aren't.
I was keen to maybe check it out and see where it goes but you have put me off with the lack of professionalism. The best route you could have taken was to ignore the critics and continue what you believe but you choose to make a hostile environment for the 2 different groups.
@Julian has received a warning for their conduct in this thread. No recruitment occurred. MGSA content is freely available to anyone, as is attending any MGSA meetup, there are no stipulations on membership at all. No stones were cast, and no attacks were made. Implying otherwise is divisive and fostering argument, which is not acceptable on this forum. Nobody has said anything against you existing, as an individual. You are free to exist. If anyone assaults your right to exist as an individual, they would be in contravention of more than just the MGSA rules, but the MGSA would definitely frown upon that. Issues were pointed out. In an attempt to help resolve those issues, links to existing knowledge and skills were imparted, information about the current state of local development and the various bodies that exist locally was provided. That's not negativity, that's trying to help. Posting rules for somewhere else and exhorting people to follow them here has no place. Please refrain from doing so. Imagine what your response would be if someone insisted that MGSA's rules be followed elsewhere?
Okay, this thread is getting dangerously close to unpleasantness.
Gird yourselves and be nice, people, or this gets closed.
The comment has also been deleted, as has the poll, which simply asked "Should development oriented political discussions be allowed in this group?"
So, I believe that being affiliated with MGSA is a bad thing for you if you join the transparent and unregulated group, just don't mention IESA ;)
There is a lot of tension in the room.
I get that.
There is a social overlap happening here and boundaries are being determined as part of a teething process. Naturally this thread exists at the behest of the administrators. I hope that the reason it remains is due to the benefit of doubt, that there is something of value to be found here.
Please keep in mind that this community is young, but the intentions are noble.
One of the goals for SA game devs, is to remain (lawfully) unregulated. The noble intention is to allow members to express ideas and designs freely without restrictions and without denigration from other users.
As a result there is currently an elevated sensitivity towards anything that might appear political.
For now, I request that users charitably consider politics (or lack thereof) as a sensitive topic when they interact on SA game devs. This might not be an indefinite request as I believe the conditions for conduct will eventually become clearer with time. (I'm sure that we can all remember the lengthy arduous process of establishing a concrete set of new forum rules.)
I've also noticed (quite happily) a few MGSA members on the SA game devs side. I can assure these individuals, and all of you, that being affiliated with MGSA is not a bad thing. Not at all. I hope that the overlapping trend will prosper in both directions; To see members from both circles join both groups.
I intend to remain a member of MGSA because I have made a lot of friends here and I enjoy the benefits offered by amazing people. But I also intend to be a part of SA game devs because it promises other benefits that I'm looking forward to seeing in the future. I want users to choose not just one side but both; To make the circle bigger, but if you don't want to then that's also okay :)
When "South African Game Developers" decides that it can actually communicate with what's happening in the South African game development industry, we'll see about re-opening this thread.
How does making it easier to make games in South Africa do this? How does putting processes in place to enable more people to make games do this?
What I find particularly odd is that IESA was never even linked to and the only people banned aren't employed or affiliated to IESA. In fact what surprises me most, given what I do, is that I am not banned.