Indie Game Development Idustry in SA
Hi all..
I've just been wondering, about peoples opinions of the indie game industry in South Africa, I'm a South African current living abroad I'm heading into game development industry and have been researching much about Indie game development.
I found that maybe 20%-30% of indie titles that are developed are actually completed or make it after completion internationally on a world scale, though SA does have a few that are internationally recognized.
The are still many holes that need to be filled in the expansion of SA's game industry to grow it further than a garden that's still very hidden from the world though I personally believe there is alot of ideas and talent to be developed in the country.
My question
Why do some games succeed and most not?
What do we need to increase the number of successful game development projects in South Africa, and get more international exposure?
What can we on the outside do to help in this process?
Yes yes I know it seems I'm kinda doubting the topic I stated about SA actually having a few successfully recognized titles, but there is a reason. South Africa has 8 titles that appear off the top of a google search using "google.com" not "google.co.za", as there is a server difference, I know for a fact there are more if you really search.
But this is too few in my opinion, personally I'd like to see more SA games recognized internationally.
My main reason for asking this type of question is because I'll be heading an indie project in Asia sometime in the near future and was thinking of having the bases of the team be South African as we work up the initial project stages through to the end.
One of the problems I've found was (this applies to everyplace in the world) that when you mention a project instantly programmers and (especially artist with biggish degrees) want to be paid but not actually contribute to the creativity of a project, a purchase it out of the box type of mindset which is noted to be a main cause of failure when hiring for projects so I've been looking to create a team and prepare a crowdfund and wanted some opinions on the standpoint of gaming in SA.
Okay back to the topic, my aim of this article is to open up discussions on the view of the gaming industry in SA not just about the qualified developers out there but also about the potential individuals out there with an interest in the gaming industry.
A wider picture of things type of topic what are any potential things that could contribute to increasing the number of successful projects coming out of SA.
Make Games-Derek |
"It’s not just something where you get a degree and wait in line for a job."
A couple of reference links:
http://cur.lv/qc3c7
http://cur.lv/qc3bf
I've just been wondering, about peoples opinions of the indie game industry in South Africa, I'm a South African current living abroad I'm heading into game development industry and have been researching much about Indie game development.
I found that maybe 20%-30% of indie titles that are developed are actually completed or make it after completion internationally on a world scale, though SA does have a few that are internationally recognized.
The are still many holes that need to be filled in the expansion of SA's game industry to grow it further than a garden that's still very hidden from the world though I personally believe there is alot of ideas and talent to be developed in the country.
My question
Why do some games succeed and most not?
What do we need to increase the number of successful game development projects in South Africa, and get more international exposure?
What can we on the outside do to help in this process?
Yes yes I know it seems I'm kinda doubting the topic I stated about SA actually having a few successfully recognized titles, but there is a reason. South Africa has 8 titles that appear off the top of a google search using "google.com" not "google.co.za", as there is a server difference, I know for a fact there are more if you really search.
But this is too few in my opinion, personally I'd like to see more SA games recognized internationally.
My main reason for asking this type of question is because I'll be heading an indie project in Asia sometime in the near future and was thinking of having the bases of the team be South African as we work up the initial project stages through to the end.
One of the problems I've found was (this applies to everyplace in the world) that when you mention a project instantly programmers and (especially artist with biggish degrees) want to be paid but not actually contribute to the creativity of a project, a purchase it out of the box type of mindset which is noted to be a main cause of failure when hiring for projects so I've been looking to create a team and prepare a crowdfund and wanted some opinions on the standpoint of gaming in SA.
Okay back to the topic, my aim of this article is to open up discussions on the view of the gaming industry in SA not just about the qualified developers out there but also about the potential individuals out there with an interest in the gaming industry.
A wider picture of things type of topic what are any potential things that could contribute to increasing the number of successful projects coming out of SA.
Make Games-Derek |
"It’s not just something where you get a degree and wait in line for a job."
A couple of reference links:
http://cur.lv/qc3c7
http://cur.lv/qc3bf
Thanked by 1NDDDave
Comments
Whoa, these are some very very big questions with some astoundingly complicated questions! I think I can answer one part of this. I don't think I can answer all the parts of this. There's an incredible number of variables that need to be managed between starting a project and "making it" internationally on a "world scale". (I assume that making it internationally means selling enough copies to cover the development costs and make another game, that's always been my goal anyway, and that is something we have achieved with our game "Broforce"). If you want an answer to all the parts you'd probably need to have some pretty deep and time consuming conversations with a lot of different people.
Firstly. Lots of projects fail to be completed because the act of completing them would be disastrous for everyone. Sinking time and money into a project that is doomed to failure is a bad idea. When a project is doomed people will naturally abandon it, as it is in their best interests to find a new project that possibly isn't doomed.
There's a golden rule I adhere to with evaluating whether a project is doomed our not. If you think a project is doomed, unless you're so pessimistic you're delusional, then it probably is doomed.
As simple as that. As soon as the team loses faith in the project it's over. Partly because they're probably right, but also because the state of working on a doomed project is demotivational, so it's a self-fulling prophecy. And because the team is demotivated, it'll also take longer and be more expensive if you just keep on trying.
The point I'm making is that cancelling a project isn't a failure. Often it is an act of protecting everyone involved in the project from a heartbreaking, and bank-robbing, experience.
Secondly. The thing that keeps teams together and keeps them motivated is that the project they are working on is awesome.
Unless you have a lot of money, the surest way to attract talented developers to a project and keep them is to be making something they thing is awesome. This also correlates with eventually releasing a game that "makes it internationally".
Sometimes something that seems awesome becomes less awesome once work has been done on it. This is either a sign that A ) the idea wasn't that awesome to begin with or B ) your team doesn't have the skills to execute on the idea (which is effectively the same as point A ). If the project seems more doomed the more work is done on it, then you might have chosen the wrong project to work on.
I know this doesn't answer all of your questions (or even fully answer any of them). What I am trying to say is that before anything else you need to find a project that you know you can execute and one that will inspire talented people to coalesce around. (And that the fact that the 70%-80% figure (that you bring up) of games that don't make it to completion also comprises of savvy developers who know when to cancel projects).
There may be other ways to complete a game that "makes it". But finding an inspiring game, and testing it frequently to see if it holds up, is the starting point I've used on my game development adventures.
I guess the problem with this approach is that it requires an enormous amount of experience to get to the point of being able to find a non-doomed project. This is why most advice about getting into the industry is: "Just make lots of games".
I'm not certain what the value of international exposure for the SA games industry as a whole is. It's doubtful that it would bring governmental attention, but maybe that's a goal... Attention for individual games is important though. That attention is mostly available to indie teams through notability - either quality or uniqueness of the game they're working on. There have been loads of posts and links shared here about how to get press to write about your game. That said, you do have to put your game out there as a developer - if there's no evidence that your game exists online, then you're not going to get attention no matter how good something is. Again, this points to communities based around feedback and sharing game builds (or at least evidence of awesome uniqueness) as early as possible. If something is going to catch fire, it'll catch early - and that early attention is going to help the game gain more attention later, it's a snowball effect. Signal boost. Play games in places like this and give their developers feedback. Things might not change the way you personally wanted them to as a result of that feedback, but it's definitely helping those developers produce things better as creatives. Tell people about the cool games you play, tell press about the good games too. Be productive and help lower risks.
(There are other ways to do this too, like growing shared business contacts or bringing international services into the country. We've done pretty well with Apple, but Google is hard to nail down for Play Store payment support. If you want a business mission, there's one waiting for you) Does it matter that games are recognised as South African? I can think of a couple of situations where it might matter, and many where it doesn't at all. I'm wondering what you see there. I'm not really sure what you mean by "out of the box" or what particularly is bad about that... Could you explain more? In my experience, everyone seems to want to get involved in the design of a game from day 1.
I know a lot of studios in SA have done and do currently do work for international clients. Are you saying that it's hard finding local studios to hire when looking in situations like yours?
Most people don't even know about the number of small teams or studios that start up every year and the fact of almost ninety percent of them die out before the 6th month of a project and then only 20%-30% of the completed projects actually get released or see fan support, @BlackShipsFilltheSky pretty much hit a nail there, but I also believe its also due to the mindsets of individuals.
Most people who are entering the believe its about making a couple of promo demos and starting a crowd fund to pay their rent for 4 months so they can play around with the games idea. A lot of people don't about the planning involved with the game project.
for example a few of the factors that need to be taken into consideration are:
1- what type of game is to be created, this should be common sense but a surprising amount new indies, take this for granted and bounce back and forward with their games idea without any bases.
2- realistically, what is needed to even start this project, not just about money also think about what skills are needed if 1 person can do it or does it need more hands on it and which hands are necessary.
3- look at the different options available that directly affects the game initial development through to the end. By this I mean everything from artists to programmers.
4- How do you create a crowd of support for your game, not just I'm making a game come check this out type of advertising, create a community and be a active part in it.
(Please don't reference this site as one cause that would make it the only viable lead to game networking, I've looked through the forums here and its decent as 1 but it seems to be over relied on and its only on a local level)
5- why would people by your game, not just sales of the game speaking at the end of development nowadays its more about who and how many people support the developers themselves, their names, its about having people interested in what your idea is even if its your first time, the indie game development industry may sound like its all about having fun but its actually a very competitive area,(the reason I took "international exposure" into consideration, cause even if 20 games are made in South Africa and marketed well among the local crowd only 2-5 are guaranteed support).
6- understand that a game isn't just a product, leave that mentality for big name AAA studios they can afford to think like that because they have the budget for that type of marketing. as an indie people don't give a dam about paying for your game unless there some some real game play and community backing to it. @dislekcia Holes as in the fact that if I mention the words South Africa and game development to somebody who is literate in the indie game industry overseas (actual people who pay for and play games made by indies, and investors, bankers and people generally interested in games) they think Kenya and Nigeria, bankers are even looking to invest in those countries when it comes to technology industries (this also includes gaming, even though South Africa is the largest gaming market in africa).
Then they commonly respond with "Oh you mean That game" or "those guys" its only Broforce, The Harvest and Pocket RPG that make South Africa actually look like its a developed country (I'm not mentioning old titles for a reason).
It may not seem like a big deal but the truth is that if like stated in carte blanche that the gaming industry is rising in sa then the indie game industry will have no choice but to become more involved with the rest of the world in some way,
Or else 10 years down the line we'll probably be nothing more than a struggling area riding on SA's rising movie industry for any type of credibility, there's only so long that you can ride the local market for support.
also about @dislekcia At the end of the day are u and your family, and friends gonna be the only ones buying your games...
Note in my question I said "A wider picture of things type of topic" so look at the long run.
Most to all indies project that actually make an profit to sustain themselves and / or carry into the next project are mostly supported by International game audiences, any game out there have more digital copies distributed over the world network, hence the internet isn't reserved for one country alone, unless someone comes out with something like steam that only focus's on the SA audience.
The international audience is essential, maybe not for small studios starting out or studios with no ambition to create more games, that would work.
Or maybe that's just my opinion..
@dislekcia This is a somewhat gray area topic for SA I added, so I'll write about what I'm witnessing oversees, In America there are cases where high school teachers as in individuals push or creating curriculum's on game development and teach it to their class, note these are people who most of them don't have prior knowledge as to game development but they make an effort.
Never mind the example itself but look at the examples metal state.
The reason I say SA is a walled of garden for one is the fact that we as a nation seem to actually be putting not much effort into expanding game development in SA among the people.
it seems SA indie devs and people with an actual knowledge about game development are more about "check this out its a new game we creating" than going out and creating better awareness to game development as a job/career among the south Africa and developing training courses and workshops to introduce those with an interest but don't have the resources to to get a feel for it.
When I try finding out if the are any community for game development or workshops, I come up blank maybe its because I'm outside SA looking in but another South African Friend of mine and I where once discussing about creating an intro to game dev workshop in his hometown Soweto later to expand into high schools.
We understood that getting the resources in SA might've be a major difficulty and security was another issue, but the point is how did we see South Africa itself in the future, not its indie game development industry as a whole.
Personally I'd like to hope that this industry can be expanded into a junior field that contributes to society in a positive way, at the very least inform new comers of the risk, reward and effort that needs to be put into building games and lessen the amount of stories about people who quit school or their jobs on a whim believing the game indie game industry is the ticket to infinite wealth.
actually I take that back I mean stop such misconceptions before they can be thought of and inform of the realities of indie game development, because the indie game industry is rising in South Africa its vulnerable to these misconceptions.
hosted by normal people and those interested in game development:
http://gamedev.meetup.com/
@dislekcia You are south African correct? You've worked with people on projects I'm sure of, I cant say how many but I'm guessing a few over an extendable amount of years.
The indie game dev industry is only just recently seeing true light in SA so I would imagine that most devs, artist and programmers would be hyped on projects, one of the contributing factors to this is that the industry is still small growing fast meaning only those few who actually have the racecourses and skills to develop games in the country can.
I was stating toward the complex that people who contribute to this industry commonly adapt, example: SA artists, and programmers are in demand "carte blanche" so more people go into these field believing its a stable income because "that skill set is in demand and they can be payed for being there and doing something".
I've had to deal with this mentality a few times already before I even decided to do anything with a project, I'm fairly new to the indie game dev industry but have experienced the mindset of a lot of people, so I was just asking as to any opinions to the type of artist and programmers out there that don't contribute anything other than technical skill in an industry than seams to be about more than just making another platformer game,
@dislekcia No its not hard finding studios even from an international standpoint looking into SA, but I'm looking for something that's a bit more than just outsourcing an idea to an SA studio, I'm actually thinking of putting together a team in SA from scratch but I want people who are genuinely dedicated.
Ive seen a lot of postings on this forum for jobs in different fields, and I'm sure I'll find individuals that I can hold a long standing development relationship with, but I absolutely don't want a already established SA studio I'm looking for new guys that would be able to hold together as a team of contributes, instead of a studio that I must employ to do a project that isn't theirs, the project must belong to the guys making it who can give their best a project and be passionate about it.
@BlackShipsFilltheSky Agreed, I think that a game that actually has the interest of the devs involved with it is a title that "makes it", I'm not talking only about the financial (even though its a major part - you need to cover costs), but also the fact that the game is a success in attracting a crowd to it, only big name studios can through money into marketing, deliver a repetitive game and get away with it.
I understand my question was broad, I'm hoping this brings a bit more understanding to the subject.
Thanks for Those two very detailed reply's
@BlackShipsFilltheSky
@dislekcia
By what limited research I have conducted, less than a 5 percent of sales made by local devs are bought by the local market. I would argue that it is "common" knowledge that if you want to be successful you must target the international audience, and it is something that every developer here does.
@Shak I think this is down to the fact that both Nigeria and Kenya are friendlier to foreign investment than South Africa, and further, have far better infrastructure and frameworks than South Africa does. For example, both of those countries have better internet infrastructure than we do, and at this moment probably a more reliable electricity supply. Secondly, neither of those countries have the very restrictive exchange control issues that South Africa does (In SA you need to get permission from the reserve bank if you want to sell any Intellectual Property to a non-resident) This makes investing in SA risky and your exit strategy can be severely hampered by the whim of the Reserve Bank. Now we've got new legislation where it looks like the State can appropriate copyright without compensation, and we have the Films and Publications Board trying to literally wall off the internet. From the above it should be obvious why SA is not the destination of choice when it comes to foreign investment.
@Shak As mentioned above not one successful in the local scene relies on the local market at all, there is no support. I've also been trying my damnedest to positon the local industry as something seperate to the film industry. The fact that we are treated as a branch of the film industry is already doing more damage than good.
@Shak I've been in extensive talks with both national, provincial and local government on this very issue over the past 5 years. From a government level, there is no support, and to be frank it is unlikely that we will see support in the future (There are some exceptions, the Western Cape Government is now making a concerted effort, and is even making some resources available).
I've started looking towards private and corporate sponsors for the type of events you mention, but so far nothing. I agree with your sentiment, but the bottom line is who is going to pay for this?
@Shak We've started making inroads. At Amaze this year the organisers ran pop-up workshops in Alexandria and Soweto which was very successful.
I've organised to international developers to come and speak about the "business" of games. One of them has experience in starting projects in Africa (see here)
I'm busy in talks with private investors to roll out game development courses through out the Gauteng, but I'm under an NDA so I can't really talk more about it. So progress is being made, but it is slow, and we can't really talk about it.
@Shak My vision for the local industry is that it grows beyond just the "Indie" games. I think there is huge potential in educational and serious games. With time I don't think it is unrealistic that we would be able to support a few medium sized studios.
@Shak The indie industry is not a route to a stable income, but even now the local industry is more than just the Indie Scene. There are currently at least 4 studios looking to hire experience programmers and artists in the country. Some of them have advertised here, others have not, but all of them are making games. If you focus beyond the indie scene there is demand.
he made it sound like the international audience was not so important in this quote\|/, sounded a bit arrogant when I read it
@dislekcia I responded with a med range explanation as to why international attention is needed.
@LexAquillia > @Shak Please dont get confused here I was stating about the mental state of people, 90%+ or so that have turned the industry upside down and make somebody "me for instance" life a living hell because the treat the job like a technical skill "something you learn and then get paid for", instead of actually being a creative part of the project they just wait for orders to do this or that with no real input.
@LexAquillia I think you make a lot of solid points in what you wrote, its a the type of feedback I'm looking for, more in detail the the real current South Africa.
The truth of the matter is that SA has a lot of potential and it could actually leave a footprint on modern career development industries like game development if the people who have the power and influence actually gave a shit about the future of our country.
Personally I would Like to see SA develop into the industry of AAA titles that can actually create more CAREERS in the industry..
He wasn't trying to say that the international indies shouldn't be aware of South African games.
He was saying that there's no need for international audiences to be aware that South African games are made by South Africans. He probably misunderstood something you wrote originally (which was also why he was asking so many questions, to try get an understanding of your original post).
Hope that clears it up. There's no need to assume arrogance on @Dislekcia's part, he was trying to answer your questions.
I'm understanding what you're saying is that someone that doesn't really care about the product being made and thus doesn't produce their best work, hence the project starts to suffer and eventually enough of those people cause the project to fail?
In other words you'd like everyone on the team to feel like they've got a stake in the project and thus look at their job more than just a job to get paid.
This argument also comes down to team size, too.
Apart from that. I think everything else worth talking about has been mentioned.
And as for everything else, yeah. It really shouldn't matter outwards if a game is made in SA or not, inwards we must just make sure A) The direction is great and B) We do great work, to contribute towards SA game dev as a whole :)
(boom, full circle!)
@SUGBOERIE First I'm not saying its wrong, there are a lot of ways to approach hiring the intellectual power to do sizable jobs and the people involved don't necessarily have to know much about the design and other mechanics of a project.
But when you design game-play mechanisms, art boards and handling interactivity of elements in the game and sound (normally) most of team all have to know what they are doing with the project and give input as to what their doing, and the aim of the project, not just taking orders.
@Tuism I'm not saying that everyone must have authority in the creation process, that would be illogical.
I actually use to think that it was about the technical skills until a senior game designer/developer who has extensive experience as a programmer put me in my place during a 2hr meeting with him about the roles that each member of a team has to play and when you can, and cant afford to think of a project as a paycheck or a game that people are gonna pay for or follow.
If you working on large projects or work that's been outsourced to you then yes only core members need to be the ones with creative input the project, the rest is "hired help only".
Passion may not be important for SA at the moment, but if a creative industry like game development, indie or major is to expand at all passion for the industry is going to be needed if you going to develop any game that people actually wanna play.
This is one of my reasons for saying SA needs more exposure, government doesn't seem to give a crap about the country developing future unless its to do with construction or food and lining their pockets (I have reasons for saying this).
So we have to give them a reason its also known and cooperate futures pressure of a country, to be clear I'm thinking of where SA's future could be and where it stands now, if the game industry is to truly grow and succeed in SA we as people have to play our parts whether physically or cognitively.
Maybe its just my opinion
Unless you have LOTS of money to put into marketing, a standard product in this industry becomes worthless, because there are already standard products out there.
Its what I mean by "out of the box", a project that is nothing more than a clone of existing niches out there is dull, and cannot carry a studio, unless that studio is lucky enough to have that out of the box project outsourced to them, but not for studios that create their own games.
Again probably just my opinion, though I do appreciate construct thoughts on the matter.
:/
I think you're listening past what's being said, or you're talking past us, or something, because at no point did anyone say "Passion isn't important for SA at the moment"... Every single last person on this forum is here for passion. Noone is here for money. If anyone's here for money, turn right around right now, there's no money here. We all know this very well. No kidding, everyone needs more exposure. But that exposure shouldn't be because SA, it should be because good games. That it's made in SA really doesn't matter. Ubisoft crosses continents. It's not Canadian, nor US. Who cares where they come from? Same with most studios. I couldn't give less damn where they're from if they're not making good games.
Internally we want the government to help us. That's true of any industry that wants to grow. Yes it's hard and yes government's ignorant, but any local creative industry that has gotten help has, well, been helped. And that still matters. Not sure if anyone said "we shouldn't play a part in the growth and success of game industry in SA. Really not sure what you're talking about. I may have missed an entirely too-huge point without knowing.
I don't understand what has given you the perception you currently seem to hold - that passion is somehow missing from the SA games industry. This is a nice sentiment. It's the same sentiment that drives @LexAquillia in his tireless quest to speak to government and grow the local industry by networking with anyone that might have funding. It's the same sentiment that pushes @Dammit and co. to organise the Amber Key workshops. It's the same sentiment that drives the community meetups, AMAZE JHB and the showcases during EGE and rAge. It's the same sentiment that energises @TheFuntastic and @Merrik (or is he @Nekropants here, I can never remember) and the rest of the Super Friendship Arcade crew. The same sentiment is behind Broforce, VCD, A Day in the Woods, Ginjah, STASIS and the like... It's the same sentiment that gets South African game developers to GDC en-masse. It's the same sentiment that keeps people trying to reach out to schools with game development course ideas, it keeps people lecturing at universities and colleges. It's the same sentiment that drives a lot of action here in SA.
I think this conversation would be a lot easier if you had a better grasp of what's going on in the South African games industry and what people are doing with their passion. I understand that you want to set up a team/studio and you have certain things you'd like to emphasise. That's cool - all I'm saying is find out what's happening locally and who shares your goals, then you can all work together.
Its probably a misconception, due to poorly writing my post, I don't believe that there's no passion in SA my statement was toward, trying to collaborate (please bare with me as I am a straight forward type of person, with not the best of social skills).
@Tuism @Shak The part about my on passion opinion is not that important I even noted a previous fault of mine.
Back to topic..
The posting on the forum was to gather information on SA's current situation in gaming, mindset of individuals (those interested and experienced in SA), possibilities of the gaming industry in SA and the realities the game industry has to deal with in SA for small teams / individuals.
Ideally This was meant to be a post where I can gather info on SA's game industry indie or otherwise, Ive been living abroad over 5 years now, most South Africans that I've met overseas have very little info on SA's matters or don't care disappointingly enough unless it maintains their current way of life.
I need this info as I'm current working on setting up a small-medium-large scale projects and was looking to create work for SA that can add to my home countries individual success's,
Also I'm looking with a few others to set up an Association for indie developers that can design develop and manage small and medium scale projects on a network of teams around the world from the internet.
Something that host contest like this forum, post job adds, but also to directly assists in marketing and crowdfunding of indie titles, and can pitch ideas that can be developed by both local and international teams / individuals, and receive assistance in managing, technology if needed, funding through fundraisers (internationally), events(internationally), crowdfunding, business planning & marketing for all projects (from our side).
something that can unify the indie industry into something that looks like the AAA industry, without the backstabbing the developers, a community driven Ubisoft so to speak.
that's the idea anyway, its been in the planning stage for a year now an is about to move into its startup stage, was looking at SA to flagship the first project.
The associations aim is to give indie developers more tools to start of with and assist them to create even bigger projects over extended periods of time by aiding wherever necessary.
Hope this makes sense and clarified some things..
I believe there's a lot of passion but not enough resources for most of it.
By the way all the comments so far have play a constructive role in one way or another, thanks guys...
Sorry. Not a huge deal, but a necessary deal. Seems pretty normal. You're living abroad, you don't know more than they do. Still not sure what "this info" is. That's what MGSA is...
Edit: @LexAquillia is asking this last question better than I could have :)
So that's a pretty cool idea, it's basically a publisher with some extra benefits?. I have some questions;
1. How is this being funded? Specifically how are the teams getting paid during development time?
2. Who owns the IP? The Association? The individual teams?
3. Where is this association based and what is it's legal form?
4. What is the relationship between the association and participating teams/individuals?
5. How do you fit into this? Do you have experience managing large scale projects like this? Do you bring the cash? Have you made games before (You mention you are "entering" the industry, so I'm wondering what your experience thus far is)?
Still not sure what "this info" is. typo
I admit that in nature they are similar, but it may be my limited knowledge of this forum, but I'm not aware of any direct support logistics, business, marketing, hosting events in other countries to promote games, equipment sourcing, crowdfund development platforms on this forum, which is what we are working on developing into the association, we are currently in discussions with potential investors.
From first impressions this forum has a good network for job postings, portfolios, events promotion, general help, posting updates of projects and competitions.
@LexAquillia
Personally I'm still inexperience with game development itself, I've Only started my official studies this year, and am currently working alongside a group of people with experience in game development, so I cant provide you with personal experience on the development standpoint, only off the information from those I've come into contact with and am currently working with.
our aim is basically a publishing house with benefits, one of the funding pipelines we have been discussing is using small initial investments with a central payoff, using that as the startup budget to develop game-play a demo / promo material and the crowdfunding platform and initial marketing.
Investors get paid their returns but rights and royalties belong to the developers with a minor percentage of ownership given to the association / publisher.
I cant go into to many details as to all the different modules for funding at the moment though we are looking at multiple options.
Note for the above mentioned type of funding we are not aiming for high bid investors that force the project to pay back an unreasonable amount to the project scale, only small initial investments to take care of the guys developing the game in the startup stage, then we move to strictly crowdfund platforms.
The reason for this is mainly to develop a project plan and create the material used for marketing and crowdfund material in order to create a crowdfund that has a higher percentage of success, as bad marketing does play a part in good games not seeing much support on the reverse a lot of good target marketing can get a bad game sold, the minus being the cost of that much marketing.
Only on occasion do good games games get recognized without any marketing but even then only if the game is "THE NEXT IT" of gaming.
the part I play currently is to scout individuals / small teams and put together and oversee the development of a team based project and see it through to completion using individuals from these current possible locations - Asia, USA, South Africa, UK, Europe.
We need ideally a minimum of small teams from at least 2 locations to collaborate on a project for up to 18 months, and be flown to Hong Kong for project meetings at set intervals (we'll take care of flight and lodge).
Sorry I left out a lot of details, what I am currently at liberty to say is thats the games themselves will be owned by the developers unless lawfully agreed otherwise, the association will is registered in Hong Kong.
I mentioned before about the association assisting / handling - logistics, marketing, events (internationally organized), business planning around a project and pitching to investor if needed.
I cannot give further details at the moment, I was planning to start another forum topic as to what the association is and further details about how it works, and its relationship with developers.
The project That we are looking to create is a proof to theory test for this system, before we decide on definitively mobilize on it.
I hope some of this makes sense, its ambitious but its a project of passion.
If you have any thoughts on what I've written above about the association please feel free to voice it, all constructive thoughts on this matter are welcome.
Thanks for the details :) My only comment so far is that I think "association" is the wrong term for what you trying to do? Normally associations are non-profit entities. I'd style it as a "collective" or just call it what it is a publishing house.
The game industry right now is going through an explosion and a lot of people are getting away with crappy or unfinished products that flood the market. Reminiscent of the golden age of the game industry where it got to a point that E.T. The game was created and it was so badly made that there are rumors that all the 100's or 1000's of copies that were not sold are buried in a land fill somewhere.
Then out the genius that is Shigeru Miyamoto, Mario was born and is toted for saving the game industry.
So why games? Games can be super profitable if you do it right as well as being a seriously enriching experience to make. We as game designers are not only locked down to our own country, we have the entire globe to sell to.
How can we be all be Shigeru Miyamoto's? Perhaps thinking out of the box, having the dedication to see it through, asking the question am I just recreating someone elses work or is this game going to change the game?
We should also think forward to the future of the gaming industry in SA and around the world. I see it that our children's children perhaps won't even use phones any more, their clunky, you have to stare down the whole time to type.
Perhaps games will start to be over-layed over the world through glasses projecting 3D. "Pokemon GO is going to be epic!"
There is a large gap of knowledge most have on how to create a successful game. Perhaps if we could get more international speakers at the events that could speak about their wealth of game creation knowledge. People from different areas of the games creation. Marketing, designing, conception, music, art, etc..
There are also other sides to making a successful game. Like thinking about the gap between your product and the user expectation. If you release your game and there is a large dissonance between what you promised and what the user experiences that could lead to users never picking up one of your titles again. Some Kick Starter games are notoriously famous for this.
And that's my 2 cents. :)
http://time.com/78303/atari-et/
http://www.ew.com/article/2014/04/27/atari-et-landfill-documentary
Slightly more on topic: While the current influx of games do resemble the run-up to the '83 crash, it's worth noting that the crash only happened in North America, and it was almost entirely Atari doing the crashing. The UK market was just as flooded with titles and was doing fine at the time. Furthermore, one could argue that Atari's crash had little to do with the volume of crappy games, but entirely with E.T. of which they manufactured far more E.T. game cartridges than actual consoles because some silly person with power had the nutty idea that people would buy multiple times - one for home, one for the holiday cottage. Also a lot of "all my eggs in one basket" type scenarios as competition from home computers started becoming a thing (which in the UK/Europe WAS the thing - consoles were not big there at the time) .
Digital distribution and a wealth of platforms, established and new, low barrier to entry, etc. make us far more adaptable today than they could be in 1983. We can learn from the 83 crash, but it's not great to use as a 1:1 comparison of today's market/situation.
Probably a discussion better suited to the "Indie Bubble" thread.
The "association" title is actually a legal thing I wont go into extreme details, I'll just say that its a investor and sponsor thing, The specifics will be explained in another post involving the association and its projects.
also google the definition of association, its commonly grouped to non profit entities (by peoples perceptions) but not limited to that, if it where registered as a singular publishing house the requirements will end up meaning we have to screw over developers that work with us for most of project shares to give to potential / direct investors.
The IP's ownership should stay with the developers who built the project unless negotiated otherwise with the association (the branch company of the Indie Game Developers Association being the publisher), meaning better flexibility and relationships between the devs the association and investors of projects.
@Shak @NDDDave
I like the flow of your answer, it was simple and to the point with a short explanation, I've mentioned above about for-mining an association (a publisher some extra benefits developers), Ill be going into detail on this and the above mentioned test project soon on new topic in the projects section on MGSA,
@Kobusvdwalt9
your link was informative, I've actually read it before, but there are still some point in the subject material. I'll discuss further on a bit later.
@rustybroomhandle
A welcome off topic subject.
Guys I'd like to thank you for the input thus far, I wont be able to update this topic as frequently, though I will be reading all posts as the come.
I'm prepping a topic for the projects category of MGSA involving what I mentioned in earlier post about the association (Indie Game Developers Association) we are looking to form and the project we're setting up for its alpha stage.
Cheers guys, hope you have a good day. :)
What I've heard is that in Hong Kong there are incentives from the government that will pay up to 100% of the salaries of the staff. I have no idea how to go about accessing that funding, but I imagine if you can get it it would mitigate a lot of the risk involved in starting a new project from there.
I'm not 100% sure that these funding options exist the way I've described, but I'm 100% certain I've heard about something of the sort.
Them = registered under IGDA & International Game Developers Association.
US = registered under Indie-GDA & Indie Game Developers Association.
Similar but no legal conflict.
@SUGBOERIE
Yes I have, actually I was looking for small mostly unknown devs, but because of limited knowledge about SA at moment I kept mentioning indies meant as both teams and individuals, but mostly teams.
We are also looking at projects already on forums like this.
@BlackShipsFilltheSky
Yes we are also working on that angle, and because we are based in asia the are a lot of potential small businesses / project investors.
Government video game and animation funding is actually common in developed worlds, but each country that have these funds also have strict requirements of application, mainly being there need a business plan and realistic projections of the project their potentially funding.
The Governments don't necessarily what to be paid back but what they do want is to know that you not going to waste the governments money and time because of no real project direction, or logistically know how.
This intimidates a lot of Indies that know about these services, but note that the fund covers everything that goes into the project, development, recourses, marketing and legal support if necessary, some experienced Indies use these services provided by the government.
Sounds exciting if it's just as you describe it to be :)
The name aside (for now, f you have any ideas for a good name then please say, open to ideas).
Can I bring up a topic about SA's international money transfer system, sending money out of and bringing money into SA.
I've had experienced problems sending money to SA before and had problems / limitations with paypal registration and payments from people in SA in the past.
Another goal of the Indie-GDA is to ease online payment process in third world nations, both for developers and gamers alike, we're currently developing a crypto currency for the Indie-GDA named clockwork coins (which will be directly traded with bitcoin or for fiat currency).
I've noticed peoples interest in cryptographies (bitcoin being the most popular) and that these currencies are easy to access and are a direct form of trade, I personally use bitcoin here and have heard some very positive things about bitcoin in SA.
Another one of the goals
is directly involved in the payment platforms we'lll be developing, through the use of ClockWork coin we'll be giving more options for individual devs / small teams and gamers / supporters, to have a simpler means of payment for smaller transfers and payments.
We are currently raising funds for the development of this currency.
the ClockWork Coin site
http://clockworkcoin.link/
This probably should be in another topic but I would like to hear any thoughts / input. I'll be positing more about it on the project topic I'm preparing with a rundown of the Indie-GDA..
If you find a way to leverage government funding from Hong Kong to fund a team that would (at least in part) work from South Africa, then that opens up a lot of possibilities.
I'd expect Hong Kong to be mostly interested in mobile development, and would require Chinese localization, which makes it less interesting for myself (I haven't really touched mobile since Pocket RPG), but there are quite a few developers in South Africa with mobile experience.
ha ha, I said we where looking at that angle but at current its complicated there (we may or may not for first project).
The first project where doing is not as intensely focused on mobile, more pc and depending on the end result we could possibility port the project to Xbox and Playstation (ideal scenario though), or again ideally have sequels, the only requirement is that the games world must take part in Hong Kong.
We actually have a project time of 18 months as our base, to help measure Dev times of this project and looking to control team size & time as development requires, where necessary ( the initial artists / developers will receive a cut out of all revenue of the game after that the rest is hired help).
One of the reasons I talked so much about a passion was because though its initially our project we will be handing it into the hands of the developers that played a key part in its startup, it will become their project, we will deal with making sure their needs are met so they have all the necessary, time and tools to use their creativity to its fullest.
Right now its about developing the start-up team and creating necessary content to display in potential investor and build a crowd fund on.
I've been looking around on the forum for guys here and there and I see a lot of potential given the recourses, and even though this is a project proposed by us / me as the poster, I want people to feel like its their and have the recourses to allow almost full imaginative freedom on it.
actually I'd like everyone heres opinion as to time scaling, and some locations as we are looking at housing most of our developers in one place at a hopefully early point (ideally give a tripple A feel to the project for the devs).
Thoughts?
One of the problems you might face, in terms of engendering a feeling of ownership, is that the devs in South Africa would be working for someone that is geographically distant. It's hard to build a team spirit with the leadership of the team so far removed (e.g. being told something you've done is wrong is okay when the person is right next to you and they can explain their position, but being told something you've done is wrong is difficult to understand and accept when the person is far away and cannot sense your confusion and so doesn't explain themselves).
If the creative control of the project is located remotely. then morale is going to be a big challenge is all I'm saying. I've seen morale during remote teamwork fail a few times and I've never seen anyone pull it off. (I assume it has been pulled off many times, I just haven't seen it so I don't know what they did).
1- when I say triple A feel I mean from a development standpoint, Ubisoft has a headquarters in Singapore and EA in china literally right next door, and when their busy on a project the projects key people practically live in the company building, I've been doing research as to their pipelines and am looking to replicate some of their aspects.
2- We trying to compensate by getting someone else who's also in charge to either move to SA or someone in SA who will be a major part of the creation team to be the ones handling the on site control.
We also looking to bring key team members to Hong Kong for regular project debriefings and other reasons to do with the logistics and creative process, I may be flying down to SA myself as well depending on the situation and if I can.
we will also be looking to fly key artist up so they can travel around Kong Kong and gather material on the city, and regular briefings over skype between the team here and the one in SA
Remember what I was saying is the purpose of th indie-GDA is this is actually an ideal simulation for what we are trying to achieve, the complicated part being that because its our initial project we have to split our forces because our goal is also to have teams in multiple areas.
for instance just an example
SA the main team,
Hong Kong business, logistics and marketing control hub, and secondary team
3- The Project Does have rules set for it (only because its our one)
A>based in Hong Kong, B>foreign protagonist (or some kind of simple character customization), C>story driven, D>involve the Triad in a major way influencing the story or gameplay, E>must implement an in game marketplace that unitizes ClockWork Coin.
Those are our our main rules set after that the creative team will be given almost complete freedom on the project if they want to add extra conspiracies about aliens to the decided storyline (if it makes any major changes to the game), we'll review it collectively as a team and with supporters on forums like this and the games project site.
Not to mention what sounds like lauding hideous crunch...
And yeah, "an in game marketplace that unitizes ClockWork Coin" sounds gross. :/
O.K. LET ME CLEAR THIS UP...
Not exploited, you forget that we'll have to be the ones financing the project and marketing the project from our side, we aren't looking to push any developers into anything they don't agree on we just want to know that we can trust them to actually give a a dam about the project and make decisions if we aren't able to on the project.
We wouldn't want to fly guys up here and bring others down if we where just exploiting them, for me personally I want the best for the this game and to see it a success I'm personal willing to invest everything in it.
I'm looking for people I will be able to develop a long term relationship with, I have an idea they have skills, I have a platform to raise money on and market the project and recognize that THERE IS NO WAY I can pull this off as an island, and am looking to compromise and collaborate.
I was looking for at SA cause I believe theres talent there and if given a stable platform in which I can work together with others and gain constructive experience from to create. if you just want to be hired for the project thats fine, but if you want to be hired for the project and gain something more out of it then I would like to collaborate with you on that level, especially because I'm I'm inexperience and having someone you is competent around would be a benefit.
If I say purple elephants and hippos that do the salsa in a game thats about gansterism, developers working with us / me must be able to say "no, purple elephants cause that and dancing hippos not a good idea, grenades and a rocket launcher are more plausible for the game we creating and maybe a swat team thats high on meth".
The in game marketplace, please don't look at it as what u making it sound like, cause everything that could be bought in it is suppose to be unlockable in game.
its a place for the digital currency we creating, neither the marketplace or the coin is to be thought of as the primary focus but is necessary,...
Passion the team we develop in this project will hopefully work with us again on other projects, we aren't aiming small go big or dont bother doing it, the worst that can happen is the project flukes and we learn what to do or not to dont.
If you want to know where I stand right now is between developing generic mobile games (that no one will probably play) in Asia as a career or chase my passion in making video games that I as an individual is passionate about.
Asia seems to be only focusing on mobile or MMO and every artist I've come across (except ones from other countries) only know how to do the same generic stuff on top of that very few people her unless Japanese show any passion in their work.
If you wish to know exactly where I stand yet again...
I am looking for three individuals or a small team that I can discuss, communicate, and propose a partnership with to help develop a proper team for this project, everything in this project is up for discussion.
No mans an island and theres nothing to be gained from trying to dis-empower people from my home country.
I take this serious, I was hoping to have an open discussion on this forum and hear peoples constructive criticism or otherwise.
@rustybroomhandle & @dislekcia I'll apologies in advance if this reply seems rude, but please collaborate on the what aspects make you feel the way you do, as to give a better reason to it, not just blatant rejection and judgment with no explanation.
I'm looking at the constraints of the game and that all seems pretty chilled. It's like any brief but room for interesting outcomes. Although the cryptocurreny threw some red flags for me.
Why? Why are you raising money for yet another cryptocurrency? How is yours better than already established alts? Are you going to focus on developing a game or the currency?
Then I did a some quick research on the what cryptocurrencies are out there and what they're doing with regards to gaming. It's there, it's been done. So, the first line on your website is C'mon ...
https://www.leet.gg/ has been doing it by the looks of it.
Also RuneScape should have a marketplace in the game that accepts bitcoin. Found a bunch of other games with bitcoin in them and this is very shallow research.
Plus the website is full of grammer issues. So, I'm starting to question how legit this is but then again you are just figuring out a few things and I hope I've pointed out some issues you have that may be turning people off.
Please correct me where I'm wrong.
References
Bitcoin’s next frontier: a reward for gamers
Thank you for your input as its actually explanatory, you are correct as its something thats being tried.
The currency isn't made to compete with bitcoin its but be traded to it, bitcoin if you've done enough research is unstable and cant hold its value against USD at a stable rate.
Bitcoin if you've used any of their services games included you'd know that you're probably gonna get screwed over when it comes to payouts due to the bitcoins fluctuations, not to mention that unless you are bitcoin developer, or have a willing friend who is one.
If yo calculate how much it costs to just deal with that coin alone, you could probably pay for a few months for a small team for a game compared to paying 1 cryptocurrency (specifically bitcoin) developer for 4weeks to implement the coin into a website.
Upto 20K USD for a nominal or good bitcoin dev.
10K USD is the monthly budget of most mmo game studios (minus marketing, rent for premise)
20K = 1 bitcoin dev 1 month working of a site plugin.
10K = 1 month dev time for small studio (in asia about 10-16 people is considered small)
If you get where I'm going with this, its actually cheap devoloping your own as its easier to raise money for, timing is better controlled and more flexibility with the currency and development, where hiring specifically for bitcoin can be costly and is very risky in general..
ClockWork coin is meant a currency that can be traded at a fixed rate to the usd, and then people can choose whether to withdraw it by trading it in for bitcoin then cash, make payments with it or trade online for cash.
basically the coin is just like getting credits on any other game site with a few more trading options, also in Asia, and Europe cryptocurrencies are a huge investment.
The site I should actually apologize for as thats the old one (it was kinda just there at its start for trying, when it was the first to make a serious attempt), we'll be developing a better, more explained one soon.
All that aside the coin isn't the main focus of the game, though we would like it implemented if we can have the coin and an sdk developed for it on this side. The devs job is specifically on the game their focus, we and I in specific want whats best for developing great games that people will actually want to play.
My main focus is the game itself, though I'm also involved with the coin, its not that big a deal.
-The Indie-GDA is the association
-Where are also registering a publishing company separately as a sister/branch corporation, I may have forgotten to mention that earlier as to why the association isn't the technical publisher its the association acclimated to the publisher I may have mentioned that as a corporation there are requirements that are needed to be met.
That would originally work against indie devs due to investor relations the association is to put a leash on those requirements so that we can create better business situations for devs.
-The coin is the coin.. that area is incredibly open to discussion on this side of the world, but please be aware, that by no means is it meant to over power the point of making games.
I hope I managed to clear the waters a bit. @SUGBOERIE thanks for the feedback I will definitely be bringing this up for the overall project discussion and revising its place where needed.
I believe 10k USD is the gross average 'cost to company' per employee at AAA studios.
For comparison, a 1K USD salary is for a very junior developer in South Africa. And with a few years experience most developers would be earning around 2K USD per month (obviously it varies by job type and other factors, though 2K I'd guess is about average for developers with 3-5 years experience).
In America a developer with 5 or so years experience tends to earn around 8K USD per month, so South Africa is a lot cheaper, but prices in Asia sound like half of South African rates again.
note I was talking specifically about Hong Kong in the previous post.
Note I'm not talking about established studios, and most of the teams receive government government funding.
I mentioned nothing about AAA and I understand the salary range of America and Europe...
But cause I live in Asia my statistical knowledge will probably based of hearsay any input of SA statistics would help.
actually your estimate for devs in SA with experience is a little lower than ours, I don't know if this is correct but about 2.3K was our original estimate for experienced & 1.3K for inexperienced varying on job type.
A good studio without government help in HK monthly budget on a project is 30K-40K USD a month with 10 people on a project.
I wouldn't pay a junior less than 1.3K USD, unless they were basically an intern still studying. So I'd say your estimates are about right (and I might have rounded down).
We've got 10 people on staff at our company, and really expensive offices, and we spend about 29K USD a month. You definitely can spend a lot less than that in South Africa to run a 10 person team. About 7K USD of that is just on the offices.
At the same time, and despite all of your good intentions, if you are coming from outside South Africa and people don't know you then you have to make sure you're paying well and have a good working environment to entice people. Especially if you don't have a great game to get people excited (game developers are for the most part motivated by passion before money).
You've got a good point about the programmers here in Hong Kong (as a foreigner or a study abroad Hong Kong Chinese) starting first year at the office salary is about 5.5K usd minus overtime and bonuses (note you work 6 full days a week and spend your Sunday afternoon at the office) for experienced programmers.
I imagine the programmers that command high salaries having a solid standing in experience and rep, Ive been searching the reported salaries in various countries on this site,
http://www.payscale.com/research/ZA/Job=Software_Engineer_/_Developer_/_Programmer/Salary
the common outlook that seniors command a far larger salary than juniors.
thanks for the info, its helpful.