Video games and Male Gaze

Merrik

<div><a href="http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/173227/Opinion_Video_games_and_Male_Gaze__are_we_men_or_boys.php"><span style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; letter-spacing: -0.8333333134651184px; line-height: 23.333332061767578px; text-align: left; background-color: rgb(250, 250, 250); ">Opinion: Video games and Male Gaze - are we men or boys?</span> </a><br><div style="font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; "><br></div><div><font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">I stumbled across this interesting article about the impact of the Male Gaze on the game industry</font></div></div>

Elyaradine

<p>Haven't read this yet, but I think it's a great concept to learn about. :)</p><p>I don't think anyone tries to be sexist just for the sake of it, but I feel it's really important as content-creators and designers to be aware of stuff like this so we don't go ostracising people out of ignorance. (Ostracising people on purpose is a much better situation, I think! ;p)</p>

Karuji

<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">@Elyaradine I'm not sure how much you have read on E3 this year, but . . . </font><div style="font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; "><br></div><div><font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">The vast majority of devs — of all genders — that I have seen speaking about it were appalled by the booth babes. Some quotes I can think of off hand "According to E3 the target market for all video games is a 14 year old boy." and "E3 was as close to a strip club that there has ever been outside a strip club"</font></div><div><font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2"><br></font></div><div><font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">The latest stats I have seen puts female "gamers" at about 46% of our audience. And those are women 30 years and above. We undoubtedly want video games as a medium for all people. Sure we will end up with the video game version of the twilight novels *cough* angry birds*cough cough* but the representation of the video game industry presents itself as something that is for the t-baging teenager. And that is the last thing I want this medium to be seen as.</font></div><div><font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2"><br></font></div><div><font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Movie Bob made some really strong points in <a href="http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/the-big-picture/5950-Tropes-vs-MovieBob">The Big Picture</a>.</font></div><div><font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2"><br></font></div><div><font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">PS I apologies if this seems like I am ranting at Elyaradine. I am ranting at the idiots in PR and marketing who are killing the industry.</font></div>

Fengol

"
<span style="font-family: 'lucida grande', 'Lucida Sans Unicode', tahoma, sans-serif; line-height: 20px; text-align: left; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); ">Ostracising people on purpose is a much better situation, I think! ;p</span> "<div><br></div><div>@Elyaradine, y<span style="font-size: 10pt; ">ou're becoming such a cynic. It's beautiful!</span></div>

[Deleted User]

<p>Whenever this topic comes up I have to ask myself: "would I rather watch lara craft rock climbing and doing cartwheels, or Brienne of Tarth in her place?" </p><p><br></p><p>This is something that is evident in the entertainment industry as a whole. There is a general standard of what is beautiful/sexy...." tight jeans double D's making me go woooohooooo! :p"</p><p><br></p><p>I have modeled a few female characters, and I used to give them the typical gaming features, unlikely sized breasts etc, and I asked my female friends for their opinions on whether they get in any way offended by this or think its sexist, and none of them do. They encourage it, think its sexy, especially the female gamers. But it looks like things are changing, and I won't have a problem with it - I mean we all saw the female barbarian in diablo right?;)</p>

raxter

@Johnny (and everyone, actually)<div><br></div><div>I came across these videos recently about female tropes in video games (and media in general) quite easy to watch and the host makes a lot of very good, clear points on the matter</div><div><br></div><div><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; line-height: 18px; text-align: left; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); ">(1st one is the intro, following 6 are the actual things)</span><br style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; line-height: 18px; text-align: left; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); "><br style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; line-height: 18px; text-align: left; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); "><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; line-height: 18px; text-align: left; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); ">intro: </span><a href="" target="_blank" rel="nofollow nofollow" style="cursor: pointer; color: rgb(59, 89, 152); text-decoration: none; font-family: 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; line-height: 18px; text-align: left; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); "> style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; line-height: 18px; text-align: left; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); "><br style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; line-height: 18px; text-align: left; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); "><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; line-height: 18px; text-align: left; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); ">1: </span><a href="" target="_blank" rel="nofollow nofollow" style="cursor: pointer; color: rgb(59, 89, 152); text-decoration: none; font-family: 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; line-height: 18px; text-align: left; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); "> style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; line-height: 18px; text-align: left; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); "><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; line-height: 18px; text-align: left; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); ">2: </span><a href="" target="_blank" rel="nofollow nofollow" style="cursor: pointer; color: rgb(59, 89, 152); text-decoration: none; font-family: 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; line-height: 18px; text-align: left; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); ">http://www.youtube.com/wa<span class="text_exposed_show" style="display: inline; ">tch?v=DInYaHVSLr8</span></a><span class="text_exposed_show" style="display: inline; color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: 'lucida grande', tahoma, verdana, arial, sans-serif; line-height: 18px; text-align: left; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); "><br>3: <a href="" target="_blank" rel="nofollow nofollow" style="cursor: pointer; color: rgb(59, 89, 152); text-decoration: none; "> href="" target="_blank" rel="nofollow nofollow" style="cursor: pointer; color: rgb(59, 89, 152); text-decoration: none; "> href="" target="_blank" rel="nofollow nofollow" style="cursor: pointer; color: rgb(59, 89, 152); text-decoration: none; "> href="" target="_blank" rel="nofollow nofollow" style="cursor: pointer; color: rgb(59, 89, 152); text-decoration: none; ">

Elyaradine

Point of somewhat-related information: <div><br></div><div>There was a GDC talk this year about art direction, especially in terms of contracting overseas (e.g. China). They talked about some of the things to watch out for when working with foreign teams, and one of their points was how "sexy" is perceived. In western culture, sexy is associated with Victoria Secrets models. In eastern culture, large breasts are apparently quite unattractive, and what is sexy to them is more along the lines of what westerners would probably call cute. (The example image they used was something along the lines of cat girls! :P)</div>

EvanGreenwood

<span class="Apple-style-span"><div><br></div>@Karuji </span>If I'm reading you correctly you suggest making video games a medium for everyone would result in more games being about inoffensive talking animals. <div><br></div><div>That doesn't really add up. Making games inclusive of women doesn't mean we cannot have interesting, even adult orientated, stories. Making our industry inclusive of women means that we should consider what we are expressing with our female characters and stop reducing female characters to sex appeal.</div><div><br></div><div>To be clear: no one is asking for family friendly games (except for parents against video game violence types, which is a totally different debate). What's been asked for as I understand it is: better representation of women in our medium and an industry that is more welcoming towards female developers.</div><div><br></div><div>@Johnny A 3D model cannot really be sexist. It needs context to do that.</div><div><br></div><div>So asking a female friend their opinion to determine whether it is sexist is not really useful. You are not going to get a meaningful response. </div><div><br></div><div>Your female friends are not seeing it in the context of (for instance) a game that only includes large breasted protagonists. <i>Your female friends are seeing it as a 3D model created by a friend of theirs who has good intentions. </i>A 3D model is never going to be sexist on it's own, it's only when that model is in a game world that (for instance) only values big breasted women that it becomes a problem.</div><div><br></div><div><div><div>Also @Johnny, suggesting that your choice in female representation is between Lara Croft and Briene of Tarth is kind of tragic in its reductionism. If you open your eyes you will see that women are far more diverse and interesting than that.<i> I know all you are really trying to say is "I enjoy looking at sexy women", but your phrasing comes across as pretty immature.</i></div></div></div><div><br></div><div>Here's an article on the subject of female representation in games that I found pretty heart breaking / illuminating: <span class="Apple-style-span"><div>http://www.racialicious.com/2011/10/20/the-tits-have-it-sexism-character-design-and-the-role-of-women-in-created-worlds/</div></span></div>;

shelton

I think looking at character development in TV drama series is interesting. Its especially interesting when designing female characters. I think that can help create more authentic characters for a broader audience

Bensonance

@BlackShipsFillTheSky I think @karuji was reflecting the idea contained in the article: that sexism in the industry is more than about how women are being represented in games. Instead games that have nothing to do with sexy women - scantily clad or not - are being marketed with these under dressed booth babes (Modern Warfare 3 for example). This shows that developers are seeing consumers as either shallow or teenage boys. Brenda Brathwaite, a decades long veteran of the games industry has a long list of tweets on the situation at E3 if you're interested in investigating further.<br><br>As for your point on 3D models - I think it's the opposite actually. Sexism is "prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination". Unrealistically 'gifted' and attractive women models fall into the stereotyping criterion of that definition. <br><br>I agree that mostly only becomes a problem in worlds that contain models of only this type, but often there is none of that variety present.  Even that is a little kind, how you dress the models also becomes important as this article explains: http://madartlab.com/2011/12/14/fantasy-armor-and-lady-bits/ . As soon as you have unrealistic clothing - it immediately becomes a problem. At the end of the day, however, there is not enough variety of women models in games - when was the last time you saw an overweight or unnatractive women in a game? Seldom.<br><br>Currently I am in the process of writing a feminist character for our team's game. I have found that it is pretty easy to avoid stereotypes and cliches for women characters when one is actively looking for them. However, I have to frequently ensure that our artist isn't being too unrealistic with her model. This is because no matter how good the writing is - an unnatural bust size and too much visible skin just about makes it redundant. Even in an interactive medium - how a character looks is just as important as how she acts.<br>

EvanGreenwood

@Bensonance This was the sentence I was referring to: "<span class="Apple-style-span" style="line-height: 18px; font-size: small; ">We undoubtedly want video games as a medium for all people. Sure we will end up with the video game version of the twilight novels *cough* angry birds*cough cough* but the representation of the video game industry presents itself as something that is for the t-baging teenager."</span><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="line-height: 18px; font-size: small; "><br></span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="line-height: 18px; font-size: small; ">Karuji proposes first that we want video games to be a medium for all people and then goes on to suggest that we will end up with Angry Birds like games, or an industry represented by these games at expos. What I was saying is that </span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="line-height: 18px; font-size: small; ">Karuji</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="line-height: 18px; font-size: small; "> seems to be conflating fair-representation-of-women with family-friendly (and kind of lame). I was trying to say the </span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="line-height: 18px; font-size: small; ">fair-representation-of-women can be just as interesting and cool.</span></div><div><span class="Apple-style-span" style="line-height: 18px; font-size: small; "><br></span></div><div>@Bensonance, Ack! You're misunderstanding me. <b>I was absolutely not trying to say that modelling unrealistically proportioned women is not problematic. </b>What I was trying to say is that modeling a unrealistically proportioned woman and then showing it to a female friend is not necessarily going to elicit a useful response about whether it is sexist or not. I haven't seen the 3D models in question, I cannot say whether it is "unrealistic" or not, I was giving Johnny the benefit of the doubt about the 3D models, but instead criticizing his methods for determining whether they are sexist or not (in the hopes that he would rethink his assessment himself).</div><div><br></div><div>@Bensonance I did read the article itself and the other article you cited. I know who Brenda Brathwaite is, I even met her at GDC 2012 (if briefly). I find this a very uncomfortable position being told to be more feminist, I'm nearly always the one ranting on at people to take gender portrayal more seriously.</div>

Karuji

<p style="font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; font-family: Arial, Verdana; "><font size="2" face="Tahoma">@BlackShipsFilltheSky for clarity, and excuse the posting at 2am. I was not passing judgement on the female characters in the games. I was focusing on the marketing that these games are provided with. While there may not be "sexxxy hawt baebz" in Generic FPS X; I would feel embarrassed to walk around E3 with a girlfriend due to the representation of women at the show.</font></p><p style="font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; font-family: Arial, Verdana; "><span style="font-size: small; font-family: Tahoma; ">Ben Kuchera wrote a very good piece on the matter of E3 booth babes </span><a href="http://penny-arcade.com/report/editorial-article/banning-e3-booth-babes-isnt-good-manners-its-good-business" style="font-size: small; font-family: Tahoma; ">link</a></p><p style="font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; font-family: Arial, Verdana; "><font face="Tahoma">The other issue I that is currently circulating the gender in games in Feminist Frequency's Anita Sarkeesian and her Kickstarter of "Tropes vs. Women in Video Games" which is referenced in the article on Gamasutra.</font></p><p style="font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; font-family: Arial, Verdana; "></p><p style="font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; font-family: Arial, Verdana; "><font face="Tahoma"><font size="2"><br></font></font></p><p style="font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; font-family: Arial, Verdana; "><font face="Tahoma">The actions of the Marketing departs of the companies at E3, and the reaction of "gamer's" towards Ms. Sarkeesian's project make me feel ashamed to identify myself with such a community or medium. I know that such a statement is perhaps overreaching. But I cannot figure a sensible way forward for video games when our public face is presented as such. If we want people to play video games they cannot view it as just the hobby of 14 year old boys.</font></p><p style="font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; font-family: Arial, Verdana; "><font face="Tahoma">Warren Spector, the 2012 GDCA Lifetime Achievement Award recipient, did a rather wonderful interview on <a href="http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2012-06-14-warren-spector-the-ultraviolence-has-to-stop">GI.biz</a> about games that are mature, and I believe that it is a correct direction. Spector deals with the violence of video games, but it is still part of the adolecent male fantasy as shown by the Movie Bob video in my previous post.</font></p><p style="font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; font-family: Arial, Verdana; "></p><hr><p></p><p style="font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; "><font face="Tahoma">[Edit: the following is added to the post after seeing @BlackShipsFilltheSky's response to @Bensonance]</font></p><p style="font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; "><font face="Tahoma">@BlackShipsFilltheSky that was not my intention at all. I was drawing a comparison to literature. Most people can read, and I would like to believe that people enjoy reading. It is a commonly accepted media with a variety of styles, genre, and many other things that define it.</font></p><p><font face="Tahoma"><font size="2">Neuromancer is my favourite novel; it is most definitely adult. A similar choice in video games would be Deus Ex. And I extremely wish we had more video games like it. In fact I recently lamented to a friend how the recent game only lived up to the mechanics of the first game but did not show the repercussions of actions that the first game did. (and we wonder why he was talking about Warren Spector ;) )</font></font></p><p><font face="Tahoma" size="2">But in an attempt for video games to become ubiquitous there shall be games such as Angry Birds that are mass appealing and of no substance. As I believe the twilight novels are. </font></p><p><font face="Tahoma" size="2">I hope this clarifies my point.</font></p>

EvanGreenwood

@karuji That clarifies it, that is exactly the point I was disputing. <div><br></div><div>We're talking about the male gaze in video games right?</div><div><br></div><div>In the context of this discussion I can only assume you are saying: Being inclusive of women in our games and in our industry means more vapid games.</div><div><br></div><div>What I'm saying is this: Being inclusive of women in our games and in our industry<b> does not </b>mean more vapid games.</div><div><br></div><div>Trying-to-appeal-to-everyone makes for more vapid games, but that's not because of women, even if no women owned iPhones the #1 game would still be vapid, it'd just be a little more violent (probably).</div><div><br></div><div>I'm saying: trying-to-appeal-to-everyone  games (like Angry Birds) are a function of how the mobile marketplaces work, and of the diligence of mobile users to search for good games, and of their willingness to spend time in and part with money on a good game, <b>not of a rise of sensitivity towards female gamers</b>.</div><div><br></div><div>And I'm saying I believe we can have wonderful games like Deus Ex while being inclusive of female gamers and not having embarrassing displays of male heterosexuality at E3.</div><div><br></div><div>You seem to be equating: "Appealing to everyone and being ubiquitous" with "Not being sexist and representing women in a fair way". I don't think they're the same.</div><div><br></div><div>Also I really hate the idea that you seem to be suggesting, that including women in a game's demographic == worse games. The assumption being that women do not like awesome games like Deus Ex or astounding novels like Neuromancer.</div>

Karuji

<font face="Arial, Verdana">@BlackShipsFilltheSky I believe I did not provide enough clarity, and that come from me being tangentile to the discussion at hand.</font><div style="font-family: Arial, Verdana; line-height: normal; font-style: normal; "><br></div><div style="font-family: Arial, Verdana; line-height: normal; ">I have always thought that your point of <i>"</i><span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-family: 'lucida grande', 'Lucida Sans Unicode', tahoma, sans-serif; line-height: 18px; text-align: left; font-size: 10pt; "><i>What I'm saying is this: Including female perspective in video games does not equal more vapid games."</i>  To be the correct view of the matter.</span></div><div style="font-family: Arial, Verdana; line-height: normal; "><span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-family: 'lucida grande', 'Lucida Sans Unicode', tahoma, sans-serif; line-height: 18px; text-align: left; font-size: 10pt; "><br></span></div><div style="text-align: left; "><font face="lucida grande, Lucida Sans Unicode, tahoma, sans-serif"><span style="line-height: 18px;">In fact there is nothing I would dispute in your post since I completely agree on the matter.</span></font></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">

Bensonance

@BlackShipsFillTheSky Ah! I see what you mean now :). I agree wholeheartedly on your series of posts and apologies if I came off as condescending and implied you weren't feminist enough ;). <br>

EvanGreenwood

@Karuji ...doh, I'm being pedantic about your wording then (which is unfair scrutiny for a 2am wondering thought). Sorry.<div><br></div><div>I too don't want only all-inclusive vapid Angry Bird's style family games. It'd be a sad day if the industry assumes that is what gamers-who-care-about-gender-issues want and gives it to them.</div><div><br></div><div>@Bensonance I look forward to seeing how that character you're writing turns out! </div><div><br></div><div>This is a bit of humorous tongue-in-cheek advice: http://www.overthinkingit.com/2010/10/11/female-character-flowchart/</div>;

[Deleted User]

@BlackShipsFilltheSky - Apologies, should have approached this with more thought and care. "suggesting that your choice in female representation is between Lara Croft and Briene of Tarth is kind of tragic in its reductionism" -wasn't my intent, I haven't done all to much research on this. I'll check out the links and change my account name in the meantime, maybe age a year or two aswell :D

Karuji

I gave a response to BlackShips' post in a new thread: <a href="http://makegamessa.com/discussion/38/female-characters-in-video-games#Item_2">Female Characters in Video Games</a><div><br></div><div>It was originally typed as a response here, but I felt it was getting off topic so I started a new thread.</div>

dislekcia

Talking to Brenda Gorno (nee Brathwaite) about sexism in games is an interesting experience, although I must admit that I enjoyed her talking about Train as well - if not more so.<br><br>Male gaze is definitely a thing in games - it's a huge thing in marketing, simply because it's an easy way to draw interest and thus lazy marketers use female objectification as enticement to draw both interest and outrage (both are seen as attention, so win, I guess).<br><br>The problem comes in when we try to prevent people from producing games that behave in specific ways - sure, some games are sexist. Some people are sexist. Just like we shouldn't outlaw killing in games because the No Russian level made everyone shit their pants, we shouldn't outlaw objectification and male gaze. Take Bayonetta, for instance, the Feminist Frequency (whose other videos I quite enjoy, except for a bit at the end of the Manic Pixie Dream Girl vid that I'll talk about below) take on Bayonetta is incredibly flawed and looks like it's only available online as mirrors - the original seems to have been taken down. Bayonetta is a game that subverts the male gaze at every opportunity, the whole naked hair thing is making fun of players, the poses, the flirting, everything is subverting the fact that you're playing this game with this attractive impossible female doing impossible things AND IT'S STILL AWESOME TO PLAY. I can't help but feel that it's designed as a sort of male gaze overdose, so that after Bayonetta you won't care for attractiveness in games anymore (especially if you're a hyperactive hormonal of whatever gender orientation that likes looking at attractive women). I can go into more detail on this, but I think it's interesting that it was so sorely missed by Feminist Frequency.<br><br>The key thing as a creative appears to be relatively easy: Avoid distilling someone down to their gender. If you ever ask yourself a question about a character (design, motivation, colouring, whatever) and the answer is "Because she's a woman", "Because he's black" or "Because she's gay", then you're distilling in a dangerous fashion and projecting a lack of understanding (unless you're parodying things, then you have to make the surface reasoning look like that but actually have deeper reasons to draw on).<br><br>Of course, this is a huge area of debate and I'm chiefly interested as someone who produces content, I know that the marketing crazyness is something that should go the way of the dodo, and I'm waiting for that to happen with hope :)<br><br>---<br><br>So on to my niggle with the Trope #1 (not in games, in culture) video from Feminist Frequency: I really didn't like the whole bit at the end about the message to writers that women aren't supposed to be inspiration. This seems silly to me, obviously that's not a function of the person that is an inspiration, it's a function of the person that is inspired. I can be inspired by a sunrise and that doesn't mean that the sun isn't an enormous conglomeration of fusing hydrogen and the only reason I even have a planet to stand on, let alone exist. Being inspired does not have to mean that a character or event designed to inspire is a shallow thing. Yes, often characters are written nonsensically or shallowly and the process of providing them with depth is really incredibly hard to pull of without spending the entire movie/book/game talking about it, but the act of being inspired is not the problem there: It's what people DO when they are inspired.<br>

edg3

This may be slightly off topic (I hope not), but last night I watched the making of diablo 3 last night with 3 friends, and the developers brought up some interesting thoughts on this very topic. In their creation of their character Leah they want to make he appealing without going the same route as how games typically these days, and they achieved it well in my opinion. They spent a lot of time in making her graceful, giving her the right air to make her feel elegant to the players. I agree that most games are over the top and it is a problem, but it is nice to know that there are studios that are recognising the issue with the images portrayed and are working at doing things in a better (in my opinion) way.<br>

EvanGreenwood

@Dislekcia I haven't watched the Feminist Frequency series. But I'd say that although Bayonetta is pretty silly and light hearted... It is still slavered in the male gaze. The main character is defined by her gender (a strong female character being interpreted as a super sexy dominatrix who uses her hair as a weapon) and it's not really a parody: The game is definitely sold through the main character's sex appeal. <div><br></div><div>I mean, Bayonetta could have been such an awesome character, I don't think her proportions are a big problem, she's a literal goddess, but the designer decided she should get naked to unleash her hair demon special move. It's silly and awesomely violent, but the message the game sends is a little creepy.</div><div><br></div><div>@Edg3 ... Ack? Leah is just about a classic Mary Sue. Although I guess that avoids the trap of the male gaze, even if the cutscene staff weren't exactly on board for that (she is walking around with her midriff exposed during the night in a cold church in the first cutscene, although maybe she just forgot how to dress appropriately for winter).</div>

edg3

@blackshipsfillthesky It is certainly not nearly as extreme as any number of other games out there today?<br>

dislekcia

@blackshipsfillthesky: Yes, the game is initially sold using superficial sex appeal, which it then continuously subverts throughout the entire process of playing it. That was my point - it's a very nuanced and interesting response to sexism in games that I feel is totally lost when people don't analyse it properly. Granted, most people don't analyse, but when people whose entire schtick is solid cultural analysis don't go into proper analysis, that annoys me.<br><br><img src="http://www.figure.fm/cgm/ecommerce/figure/images/large/f41099ad3ccd93db2ebda0a59900ff4b.jpg"><br><i>Wait... Is this hot or is this ripping off swagger and guns as penis replacements? Stop with the multiple meanings, I just want to judge it and be self-righteous!</i><br><br>One of the fundamental things in male gaze is the concept of return gaze - Bayonetta, even in her skimpiest "only hair" and lipstick cards advertising on the Tokyo subway, is never returning passive gaze. This is one of the ways you can distinguish nude from pornographic images, the gaze on the subject implies the relationship that the viewer is supposed to have with the image. Bayonetta, for all her leggy sensuousness (which is actually something that becomes creepier and creepier throughout the game - she's actually completely alien in body construction, so the game subverts the idea of "attractive body images" as well), naked hair transformations and stripper-esque poses, never drops down to a submissive or come-hither gaze - she's always right up in the player's grill, enjoying the fact that she knows all about objectification and is challenging the viewer right back. Even when the she does her first few hair transformations and the camera whizzes past suggestive crevices, she winks - not playfully or coyly, as objectified subjects would, it's a U-see-whut-we-did-thar-and-we-both-know-that-both-of-us-know-it wink.<br><br>She shouts various manglings of "ENGORGIO!" as her hair streams from her freshly revealed body (though always with dynamic ribbons of it that block very specific body areas, hoho no porn for you), which then leaps to the sky in a subtly phallic animation and then crashes to earth as either an over the top campy horrible demon or bondage-inspired torture device, complete with campy over the top unwilling participant animation, all made of hair. Is this game still trying to titillate me or have we hit the realms of farce by now? And yet it's completely deadpan in execution - the only jokes and wry smiles are all in Bayonetta's dialogue with male characters, who never seem to understand anything she says. What could it mean?! Are we commenting on female hairlessness? Are we implying things about the dangers of superficial sexual interpretation of meaning? Am I just fucking batshit and everything's lost in translation and I'm actually just being anti-racist for assuming the slitty-eyed yellow devils have meaning to their game-porn?<br><br><img src="http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/9/2012/01/742b79c0b5ffe63eb377cf6587c40798.jpg"><br><i>She knows.</i><br><br>Bayonetta constantly subverts the process of being objectified, none of the men in the story are worth shit and none are ever portrayed as above her, she even (warning: spoilers!) takes control of her own life by guiding and protecting a younger version of herself, who she teaches lessons to in a way that don't gel with being nothing but an objectified sex object...<br><br><img src="http://andriasang.com/comcy4/bayonetta_ads/2213u.jpg"><br><i>What the fuck is this pose even about? Impending spider alien roundhouse kick? Look at her face... I don't even.</i><br><br>TLDR: It's a much deeper take on in-game objectification than most people give it credit for. Just like Braid's story isn't about love or loss, Bayonetta's feels like it's actually about sexuality in games through subversion.<br>

EvanGreenwood

@Dislekcia For the most part I do like Bayonetta. It's that press a button to make her turn her back and remove her clothes to do a special move that bothers me despite agreeing with your analysis. I just feel like the 16 year old boys who control her are still having a male fantasy despite the fact that she's portrayed as a strong female. I'd feel differently if it were a movie perhaps. I'm going to have to think on this some more.<div><br></div><div>@Edge Oh, I meant Leah is pretty solid in terms of sexism, though that first cutscene was daft. But I think she's a Mary Sue, which is a different kind of problem.</div>

edg3

@blackshipsfillthesky Fair enough :P

dislekcia

@blackshipsfillthesky: Oh I agree that the sexually marketed demographic is having a fantasy experience - at first. I'm of the impression that it stops being as "bad" a fantasy (you're still playing a game about shooting angels in the face) from a sexism perspective as the game progresses and the player has their experience more and more subverted.<br><br>I think that's an engagement mechanism that few social commentators would notice if it smacked them in the head with a rubber mallet - or even met them at a rally, had a great time shouting slogans, saw them 2 days later again, sat down somewhere together, gave them a cup of tea and had a reasonable discussion about the implications of extremism and introducing contradictory messages through trojanism.<br>

EvanGreenwood

I thinnk I'm going to have to buy Bayonetta and finally play it to the end :)

Karuji

@BlackShipsFilltheSky I highly recommend you do. The end is rather good when I thought about it through this lens.

EvanGreenwood

<div>@Karuji Coming from someone that list's The Witcher as one of their all time favourite games your opinion doesn't mean much to me here. In fact now that you're recommending this I feel a fair bit more doubt for Danny's excellent argument.</div><div><br></div>The concern of the article in the original post was about the industry being hostile towards women (women being developers, and women feeling included in our games).<div><br></div><div>I say that again, because whether or not a prolonged play of Bayonetta is an example of icky male gaze or not, it's still a game that is more part of the problem than part of the solution. It's not a game welcoming of many women. It seems to me to be a very masculine idea of female empowerment. (So even though I'm glad it exists and as a guy am interested in playing it, I wish it was created in an environment where the sexualization of women was a witty exception to the rule rather than another marketing ploy)</div><div><br></div><div>Interestingly the creators of Bayonnetta are in fact icky sexist's who designed her to be their ideal woman who they'd like more women to dress like, not that that matters, but it doesn't bode well.</div><div><br></div><div>(I guess I'm saying that's why I was particularly negative towards Bayonetta in the first place, and may still be after playing it)</div><div><br></div><div><br></div>