@Pierre When we're talking about feature films, I don't think that Ghibli's business model is that different from Disney, given that they both make family friendly animated feature films for cinema distribution (and DVD's etc after that).
But even if they really are very different, with goals and methods as different as Playboy and the Poetry Foundation as you contend, why would having a differing business model, or differing degrees of commercial success, makes it useless to compare the portrayal of women/girls in Disney and Ghibli's respective feature films? (Which appears to be what you're arguing).
Surely those differences just allow for more avenues of inspection, rather than invalidate the process itself?
If you think it's necessary to discuss the impact of Disney's and Ghibli's respective goals on the portrayal of women in their films then why don't you add those thoughts here?
@mikethetike Isn't applauding Hayao Miazaki's portrayal of women precisely the positive type of action you're asking for? (All the posts in the last month in this thread have been about that, are you perhaps referring to previous posts in the thread? )
I am actually a little confused about your post? It appears to be saying that people in this thread are criticizing male humans. Like you're reading some kind of anti-male sentiment into all of this?
If I've read that right, I think you've misunderstood. Being critical of female representation in media isn't the same thing as being angry at men.
It makes me sad that instead of building up guys trying to develop games, we are criticizing them for something that is not their fault. Who are you angry at? The local devs or the industry? It's like going to a guy starting a business carving mini statues and telling him he's destroying the rain forests. Or telling a South African metal band that's starting out that because they wear shirts with skulls on them that they will corrupt kids.
Look I understand that the world is wrong in their portrayal of women. My point is that this community is supposed to help local devs.
Criticism is useful. Criticism, thoughtful, well worded and constructive criticism has been proven to be some of the best help that developers (local or not) can get. I don't think that getting defensive on someone else's behalf is helpful at all. Please don't do that, especially not via a set of false comparisons that undermine the importance of gender equality as a topic of both discussion and respect.
@Tuism I think given that animation is much more prevalent in adult culture in Japan than it is in America, I'm not sure whether it'd be constructive to compare animated porn in Japan to the American equivalent.
I'd guess that in Japan you'd simply find a much wider scope of cultural content in animation than you do in America.
Although I'm not sure that the adult-only animations of America are significantly less upsetting than the adult-only animations of Japan. What do you think of "Mr Pickles" for instance?
OK using hentai as an example was not 100%. But that still wasn't the point - Japanese porn is actually pretty badass, and has been known to be. There's absolutely a huge industry around porn in Japan, so much so that it's actually quite a lot beyond "underground" - a lot of it is actually mainstream. They have so-called AV stars (adult video) who regularly star in daytime variety shows. Is the porn industry as prevalent in the west/america that porn stars are effectively and regularly starring in, say, Oprah? In the same volumes? I'm no expert, but from what I've seen it seems to be a no. Unless someone disagrees and would like to substantiate/theorise.
So the point stands... Again I'm not STATING, I'm asking. I just don't want the point to be brushed aside because of a non-point (like animation vs live action). My point is about the culture in its entirety, not in one segment or the other segment alone.
OK using hentai as an example was not 100%. But that still wasn't the point - Japanese porn is actually pretty badass, and has been known to be. There's absolutely a huge industry around porn in Japan, so much so that it's actually quite a lot beyond "underground" - a lot of it is actually mainstream. They have so-called AV stars (adult video) who regularly star in daytime variety shows. Is the porn industry as prevalent in the west/america that porn stars are effectively and regularly starring in, say, Oprah? In the same volumes? I'm no expert, but from what I've seen it seems to be a no. Unless someone disagrees and would like to substantiate/theorise.
So the point stands... Again I'm not STATING, I'm asking. I just don't want the point to be brushed aside because of a non-point (like animation vs live action). My point is about the culture in its entirety, not in one segment or the other segment alone.
I'm still not sure how this is linked - exactly - to the current conversation. We aren't talking about porn - which is an entirely different conversation in itself. We're talking about the representation of women aimed specifically at young girls. I would hope that they're not exposed to porn at that age because that would probably be more than damaging.
As for a culture as a whole, there is a huge amount that is different between japanese culture and western american culture, absolutely. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't take the best of japanese and emulate it in our own work. It is an interesting conversation to have as to why young girls are represented so well in children films in japan as compared to western culture, but I don't think it's related to porn. It's probably more related to how women are valued in the culture for assets other than the ability to reproduce ie: they're seen as intelligent, and so that comes across in portrayals. of more than just sexy princesses. On the other hand, perhaps this is why women are so debased in japanese porn (to appeal to sexual power fantasies) - essentially, I'm arguing the opposite causal relationship to you. But, ultimately, neither of us know any of these things for sure.
I'm not linking porn into this discussion. Here's the line of thought broken down simply, maybe this will help:
First this came up: Japanese representation of women in animated productions ahead of Western representation of women in animated productions.
This statement leads to "japanese thinking is ahead of western thinking"
That led to "Is Japanese thinking intrinsically ahead of western thinking? And if so, is the fact (example) that it is ahead an isolated entity that only has to do with Ghibli vs Disney, or is does it encompass/come from a greater cultural context of Japan vs USA"
Then, if it's a cultural discussion, then we can look at Japanese culture as a whole and Western culture as a whole. Thus, we can examine the entire spectrum of representation of women, and not just the single arbitrarily picked example of good (Ghibli) vs a single arbitrary example of bad (Disney), because the cultural context contains so many other things, as mentioned previously.
Thus, the question, again:
Is the so-called "goodness" in a society is balanced by the "badness", that the one develops because of the other, (whether extreme vs moderate, inconsiderate vs considerate, or mainstream vs underground) OR if they develop with no correlation between the two.
Or, more contextualised:
Is there correlation between "positive representation of women in a culture" and "negative representation of women in a culture"? Or are they not linked at all? Does Ghibli's positive stance exist because of a reaction to the negative stance that exist in that culture? or in tandem with? Directly proportional? Inversely proportional?
And, by extension, is it fair to say "Japanese culture is better at representing women in media", or does the existence of Ghibli have no bearing on Japanese culture as a whole?
Thus - is this a Japan vs West question - or is it actually simply a Ghibli vs Disney, isolated from its environment and has no bearing on the cutlure - question?
@Tuism: None of those things is the comparison that @dammit is making.
"We're talking about the representation of women aimed specifically at young girls." If you want to continue the discussion, it's probably a good idea to speak to that context, not some imagined "goodness" or "badness" of entire cultures.
@Tuism Yeah, I think @Dammit's opening statement was a bit of a generalization. It was more generalized (and more problematic) than the video @Dammit linked (and what most of the subsequent posts have been about).
I personally feel very uncomfortable taking my limited knowledge of Japanese animation/porn and my slightly-less limited knowledge of American animation/porn and from that drawing conclusions about Japanese culture (along with my zero experience living in Japan). I'd expect we could only achieve some kinda-racist generalizations if we enter into that discussion armed with as little information as we have.
I wouldn't want to use the Studio Ghibli's work to make conclusions about Japanese culture either. I'm assuming that the author of that video about Disney&Ghibli is drawing his conclusions based on other information about Japanese culture which he doesn't present to the audience (but I could be wrong about that, if the video's author is literally just using Ghibli as exemplifying Japanese culture then I think that that video is a bit derp).
Yeah, I wasn't drawing conclusions, I've only stated over and over that I was asking the question in reaction to the stuff being put forward.
No, I don't think I know that the Japanese are better representing women based solely on the evidence that Ghibli seems to be be more responsible at it than Disney.
@Tuism Yeah. I didn't mean to imply that you were drawing conclusions. But it did feel like you were trying to turn the conversation towards talking about Japanese culture in relation to it's porn industry from a South African perspective (which is a bit of a silly conversation to have :P ).
@Tuism I'd also like to know if there was a basis for the video author's comments that in Japan, through Japanese media, they encourage female children to be more confident and independent (more like the characteristics of Ghhibli characters anyway).
(I'm paraphrasing, but I recall the video making a similar sort of claim)
But honestly, it's not a question I'd expect answered on MakeGamesSA.
Read a comparison of Disney vs Ghibli, in which the author pointed out that Disney started back in the 1920's when values were more patriarchal and the first few feature film animations are mostly based on fairytales that have been re-written with these values - which then set the norm for Disney, and once you've a winning formula why change it? (Well, obviously, to keep up with the times, the advancement of society, etc.) Ghibli on the other hand began in the 80's, quite a different time with more balanced values - also worth noting that Japan was coming out of a post-WW II era, in which many households would have been matriarchal, due to many men dying in the war, which would establish women in Japan as being central to the rebirth of the country. Ghibli films are also original stories (for the most part), using some Japanese folklore, but not relying on the fairytales to drive the narrative, instead the characters are central to the story rather than the narrative (as in many Disney films).
I'm the world champion at derailing conversations, so I probably shouldn't talk, but I think this one is getting less useful the more it progresses.
Context is important, as has been said, but in this case I think the most important context in which to discuss this is in how if affects you/me as people who make games/create media.
The OP states something which is a problem. As a creator I must try and understand why it's a problem, or at the very least why it might be seen as a problem for others. And with that, perhaps also to find examples to help understand better.
The Disney/Ghibli thing is a great "good example"/"bad example" comparison here, and it's more important to understand the mechanical specifics of why they are good/bad examples than to understand how they got there.
As a creator, the takeaway should be - how can I create better content? In this case "better" meaning "more responsible".
Comments
And generally speaking there's no "enemy" here. Just discussion.
But even if they really are very different, with goals and methods as different as Playboy and the Poetry Foundation as you contend, why would having a differing business model, or differing degrees of commercial success, makes it useless to compare the portrayal of women/girls in Disney and Ghibli's respective feature films? (Which appears to be what you're arguing).
Surely those differences just allow for more avenues of inspection, rather than invalidate the process itself?
If you think it's necessary to discuss the impact of Disney's and Ghibli's respective goals on the portrayal of women in their films then why don't you add those thoughts here?
@mikethetike Isn't applauding Hayao Miazaki's portrayal of women precisely the positive type of action you're asking for? (All the posts in the last month in this thread have been about that, are you perhaps referring to previous posts in the thread? )
I am actually a little confused about your post? It appears to be saying that people in this thread are criticizing male humans. Like you're reading some kind of anti-male sentiment into all of this?
If I've read that right, I think you've misunderstood. Being critical of female representation in media isn't the same thing as being angry at men.
So the point stands... Again I'm not STATING, I'm asking. I just don't want the point to be brushed aside because of a non-point (like animation vs live action). My point is about the culture in its entirety, not in one segment or the other segment alone.
As for a culture as a whole, there is a huge amount that is different between japanese culture and western american culture, absolutely. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't take the best of japanese and emulate it in our own work. It is an interesting conversation to have as to why young girls are represented so well in children films in japan as compared to western culture, but I don't think it's related to porn. It's probably more related to how women are valued in the culture for assets other than the ability to reproduce ie: they're seen as intelligent, and so that comes across in portrayals. of more than just sexy princesses. On the other hand, perhaps this is why women are so debased in japanese porn (to appeal to sexual power fantasies) - essentially, I'm arguing the opposite causal relationship to you. But, ultimately, neither of us know any of these things for sure.
First this came up: Japanese representation of women in animated productions ahead of Western representation of women in animated productions.
This statement leads to "japanese thinking is ahead of western thinking"
That led to "Is Japanese thinking intrinsically ahead of western thinking? And if so, is the fact (example) that it is ahead an isolated entity that only has to do with Ghibli vs Disney, or is does it encompass/come from a greater cultural context of Japan vs USA"
Then, if it's a cultural discussion, then we can look at Japanese culture as a whole and Western culture as a whole. Thus, we can examine the entire spectrum of representation of women, and not just the single arbitrarily picked example of good (Ghibli) vs a single arbitrary example of bad (Disney), because the cultural context contains so many other things, as mentioned previously.
Thus, the question, again:
Is the so-called "goodness" in a society is balanced by the "badness", that the one develops because of the other, (whether extreme vs moderate, inconsiderate vs considerate, or mainstream vs underground) OR if they develop with no correlation between the two.
Or, more contextualised:
Is there correlation between "positive representation of women in a culture" and "negative representation of women in a culture"? Or are they not linked at all? Does Ghibli's positive stance exist because of a reaction to the negative stance that exist in that culture? or in tandem with? Directly proportional? Inversely proportional?
And, by extension, is it fair to say "Japanese culture is better at representing women in media", or does the existence of Ghibli have no bearing on Japanese culture as a whole?
Thus - is this a Japan vs West question - or is it actually simply a Ghibli vs Disney, isolated from its environment and has no bearing on the cutlure - question?
"We're talking about the representation of women aimed specifically at young girls." If you want to continue the discussion, it's probably a good idea to speak to that context, not some imagined "goodness" or "badness" of entire cultures.
But ok nah nevermind then. Let's talk about it in isolation. Ghibli is wonderful, Disney could do better.
I personally feel very uncomfortable taking my limited knowledge of Japanese animation/porn and my slightly-less limited knowledge of American animation/porn and from that drawing conclusions about Japanese culture (along with my zero experience living in Japan). I'd expect we could only achieve some kinda-racist generalizations if we enter into that discussion armed with as little information as we have.
I wouldn't want to use the Studio Ghibli's work to make conclusions about Japanese culture either. I'm assuming that the author of that video about Disney&Ghibli is drawing his conclusions based on other information about Japanese culture which he doesn't present to the audience (but I could be wrong about that, if the video's author is literally just using Ghibli as exemplifying Japanese culture then I think that that video is a bit derp).
No, I don't think I know that the Japanese are better representing women based solely on the evidence that Ghibli seems to be be more responsible at it than Disney.
(I'm paraphrasing, but I recall the video making a similar sort of claim)
But honestly, it's not a question I'd expect answered on MakeGamesSA.
But anyway, to reiterate, Disney < Ghibli :P
Ghibli on the other hand began in the 80's, quite a different time with more balanced values - also worth noting that Japan was coming out of a post-WW II era, in which many households would have been matriarchal, due to many men dying in the war, which would establish women in Japan as being central to the rebirth of the country.
Ghibli films are also original stories (for the most part), using some Japanese folklore, but not relying on the fairytales to drive the narrative, instead the characters are central to the story rather than the narrative (as in many Disney films).
Context is important, as has been said, but in this case I think the most important context in which to discuss this is in how if affects you/me as people who make games/create media.
The OP states something which is a problem. As a creator I must try and understand why it's a problem, or at the very least why it might be seen as a problem for others. And with that, perhaps also to find examples to help understand better.
The Disney/Ghibli thing is a great "good example"/"bad example" comparison here, and it's more important to understand the mechanical specifics of why they are good/bad examples than to understand how they got there.
As a creator, the takeaway should be - how can I create better content? In this case "better" meaning "more responsible".