What happened to SAGD and what's next?

dislekcia

First up, welcome to Make Games SA. Hopefully we can turn this into a thriving community of like minded game developers, designers, artists and composers in order to help us all make better games and build a game development industry in South Africa.<br><br>This forum was created after the untimely demise of SA Game Dev, a forum that had recently started turning into a positive and functional community. I hope that we can take the same spirit that was blossoming there and infuse it into this place. <strike>We don't know what happened to SAGD right now</strike>, nor do we know what will happen to that domain. *edit* Apparently Korax <a href="https://twitter.com/jacqueskrige/status/215873616548597760">shut the site down</a>.<br><br>So, with that in mind, what should we do next? There are a number of options (feel free to raise more):<br><ol><li>Are we going to try and create a legal association of game developers as Nick Hall has suggested?</li><li>Who should be moderators here and how should we go about determining forum rules?<br></li><li>What regular threads should we set up to drive participation? (The weekly sketch group was doing awesomely before SAGD was shut down)</li><li>Who is going to take a stab at writing a FAQ? Does anyone have what RaithZA wrote earlier anywhere?</li><li>Should we try to approach Korax and see if he would be willing to redirect SAgamedev.com here?<br></li></ol>

Elyaradine

<p>1. That sounds like a great idea. I'm all for it.</p><p>4. I don't have RaithZA's post, but I do have my art response.</p><p>Related note, I see this as the <em>beginning </em>of a golden era, rather than the end of one.</p>

Karuji

1. I'm all for the legal association.<div>2. I think we need to grow a bit more as community before we can put anything here.</div><div>3. Weekly Sketch is awesome. I know monthly game dev competition anyone?</div>

raithza

I do have a copy of my FAQ draft saved, unfortunately I can't post it here as the body is too long!

Rigormortis

I followed all the drama on SAGD and have to admit that I did not read Lexaquilla's(hope i remeber the name correctly) entire post about the association but you guys seem to think that it's a good idea so I say go for it. <br><br>Also I will help anyway that I can. I'm not sure what I can offer seeing as I don't have the experience you guys have but I am more than willing to help out where I can.<br><br>So yeah, let's work hard and make this an inspiring site for all would be game developers.(man, i'm such a cheerleader...)<br>

edg3

@RaithZA: I have upped the character limit, but if it still doesnt fit split it into more than one post on a single thread.

Elyaradine

<p>Just to go back to the topic of rebranding the face of the SA game dev community (<a href="http://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups#!topic/sagamedevelopercommunity/ksf-p94-0dY">giant thread of catch-up can be found here</a>), where it was mentioned that there's no real point of our being associated with the IGDA at the moment.</p><p>I'd just like to point out that regardless of whether or not we can make use of the IGDA benefits, and regardless of whether we're in a position for any of that to make sense, I think a strong argument for retaining some involvement with the IGDA is how, as a long-established organisation, it may lend some legitimacy to any of the community-building things we launch. That way, when students want to get involved, or their parents need to get involved by extension (through their support, however that happens), we're not some random startup on the tip of Africa, but rather a part of a greater, global, and very real, community.</p><p>Another win might be international, where we might ask some international developers to video chat Q&A/talk, where "we're the South African IGDA chapter" may have more weight than "we're a South African game developer community".</p><p>The IGDA.co.za site being dormant is a definite issue, sure. I just think that there are benefits outside of the "official IGDA membership benefits" that we could use, and they're worth considering.</p>

AngryMoose

<span style="font-size: 10pt; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-family: 'lucida grande', 'Lucida Sans Unicode', tahoma, sans-serif; line-height: 20px; text-align: left; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); "><i>"I'd just like to point out that regardless of whether or not we can make use of the IGDA benefits, and regardless of whether we're in a position for any of that to make sense, I think a strong argument for retaining some involvement with the IGDA is how, as a long-established organisation, it may lend some legitimacy to any of the community-building things we launch.</i></span><div style="font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; "><span style="font-family: 'lucida grande', 'Lucida Sans Unicode', tahoma, sans-serif; line-height: 20px; text-align: left; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); "><i><br></i></span></div><div style="font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; "><i><span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); font-family: 'lucida grande', 'Lucida Sans Unicode', tahoma, sans-serif; line-height: 20px; text-align: left; font-size: 10pt; ">Another win might be international, where we might ask some international developers to video chat Q&A/talk, where "we're the South African IGDA chapter" may have more weight than "we're a South African game developer community".</span><span style="font-family: 'lucida grande', 'Lucida Sans Unicode', tahoma, sans-serif; line-height: 20px; text-align: left; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); ">"</span></i><div style="font-style: normal; "><br></div><div style="font-style: normal; ">++</div></div>

LexAquillia

I think in the long run we should definitely be looking to join the IGDA. That being said, there are some hurdles that we need to overcome before we can establish an official chapter. (My reference for this information is <a href="http://www.slideshare.net/nickporsche/creating-an-igda-chapter-in-malta">this slideshow</a>)<div><br></div><div>From my reading the essential requirements to start a chapter are:</div><div><br></div><div><ol><li><span style="font-size: 10pt; ">A non-profit organisation needs be formed</span></li><li><span style="font-size: 10pt; ">The committee needs to have 3-6 members</span></li><li><span style="font-size: 10pt; ">The "chapter" needs to have a minimum of 10 fully registered IGDA members</span></li></ol><div>We're in the process of doing (1), (2) will be fufilled by doing (1). So the only "stumbling" block is getting 10 full members (Full membership requires $48 per annum OR $600 once off). So we can definitely get to it, if we can get 10 people prepared to cough up the cash to join the IGDA.</div></div>

Karuji

<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">@LexAquilla actually the membership costs for us are lower since SA is categorized as a developing country so our membership dues are about $35 per annum. I can't remember the exact cost when I signed up but it is less than $48 for us.</font><div><font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2"><br></font></div><div><font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Also as some additional incentive: the IGDA has discount codes for GDC, which knock about $150 off the price. (The codes are limited stock, so you need to plan ahead and use it early.)</font></div>

dislekcia

I definitely think we should be looking at IGDA membership, but only once the association is sorted out. It could be one of the new committee's first missions ;)<br>

Karuji

Sounds like a plan, also seems like I'll have to make a plan to come down to CT some time soon :)

EvanGreenwood

I understand the benefit for a South African Game Developers Association to be associated with IGDA...<br><br>But besides the discount GDC tickets I'm not too certain what the use of being an IGDA member is. Seems like what you get is access to some out-dated information and possible public speaking by people dealing with entirely different problems to us. IGDA seems to me like an old boys club in an industry rapidly evolving.<br><br>Sorry to be a negaton, maybe there's something about IGDA that I'm not aware of. In any case I'm happy to become a member for the legitimacy benefit and the discounts :)<br>

Karuji

<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">@BlackShipsFilltheSky you're right that we don't really benefit from it as much as the people in the US do, but I do believe given time and such we will find ways to benefit from it. Imagine that we could send students to GDC using the IGDA. We can't do that right now, but given time I think possibilities like it may arise. Like with this community our involvement with the IGDA will determine what we benefit from it.</font><span style="font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: small; "> </span><span style="font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: small; "> </span>

EvanGreenwood

@Karuji That's kind of the answer I've always received about IGDA. <br><br>To be clear, my impression of the IGDA is that it is very AAA focussed. So my feeling is that some of the opportunities South African members will receive will be to leave the country and work overseas. I see anything that makes leaving the South African game development scene easier as bad, hence my reluctance.<br><br>Obviously I see a use for IGDA association for the South African association, it's the benefits of individual membership that I'm questioning. <br>

Elyaradine

<font face="Trebuchet MS" style="font-style: normal; ">Yeah, I don't really see much benefit in individual membership right now either. I'm just talking more about the communities themselves having some kind of affiliation.</font><div style="font-style: normal; "><font face="Trebuchet MS"><br></font></div><div><font face="Trebuchet MS">@BlackShipsFilltheSky: <i><span style="font-size: 10pt; ">"</span><span style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 18px; text-align: left; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); ">and possible public speaking by people dealing with entirely different problems to us</span><span style="font-size: 10pt; ">"</span></i></font></div><div style="font-style: normal; "><div><font face="Trebuchet MS"><br></font></div><div><font face="Trebuchet MS">While I agree that they would be dealing with an entirely different set of problems in terms of business decisions, perhaps the culture of game development, and other more macro-oriented things, I feel that we can still benefit a lot from more micro stuff. Being better artists. Being better programmers. Being better designers. I feel that there's so much meat in these subjects, and that they're, for the most part, independent of where we live.</font></div><div><font face="Trebuchet MS"><br></font></div><div><font face="Trebuchet MS">Also -- and I could be wrong -- but I was under the impression that we don't have to fulfill a bunch of requirements if we want to call ourselves a local IGDA chapter. The requirements there are only for if we want to claim benefits somehow (for example, getting a few thousand dollars grant to help us market stuff, etc., which the IGDA apparently does). We can be affiliated with them nominally only, and only gain the official benefits when we're in a position to make use of them. (This is how I understood stuff from when Sven and I were chatting about it anyway.)</font></div></div>

reflex

Where is the RSS feed?

EvanGreenwood

I like the getting grants to help market SA games bit :)<br>

Karuji

<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">@BlackShipsFilltheSky the IGDA is a framework, much like and engine for a video game. What we do with it is dependant on what we want to do with it. Questioning whether it would be of use to us is a great question, and I fully encourage the community to debate the issue.</font><div><font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2"><br></font></div><div><font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Is the IGDA the right fit for us? To be honest I can only give say what I feel about the issue; I cannot give any hard evidence to say "yes this is what we need".</font></div><div><font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2"><br></font></div><div><font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">To use game engines as a sort of metaphor. I wouldn't try making a FPS in Ren'Py. Games like Batman Arkham Asylum, and Antichamber show how their engine game be used for more than just First and Third Person Shooters. I feel that the IGDA is much like the Unreal Engine, it might not be exactly what we need, but with some work we can make it what we need, and use it as a base for awesome things. </font></div>

EvanGreenwood

@<span class="Author"><a href="http://www.makegamessa.com/profile/4/Karuji">Karuji</a> That's very prosaic of you. That statement could be made about just about anything.<br></span>

dislekcia

It sounds like the IGDA doesn't help us do what we need to do right now:<br><ul><li>Polish up this site to a high sheen</li><li>Elect moderators</li><li>Get regular content and participation systems flowing on this forum<br></li><li>Found an association</li><li>Elect a committee</li><li>Evangelise like there's no tomorrow</li></ul><p>Everything that we could get from IGDA membership sounds like something that would only be useful AFTER those steps have been completed, so why are we spending so much time talking about it at the moment? Simply table the idea and let it arise again when it's relevant.<br></p>

Elyaradine

That's fine. :) It'd just been on my mind from the Google Groups thread; not urgent or anything. :)

edg3

@reflex I am working on a plugin to do news from the site, it will allow us to link to and discuss external and internal (to the site) news items, there will most likely be an RSS feed for that, it will also very likely give us the capability to even feature threads from the forum on there. The features are detailed in <a href="http://makegamessa.com/discussion/21/site-suggestions-requests-etc-#Item_1">this thread.</a><br>

[Deleted User]

Hi guys - first post and first intrepid step towards contributing.<div><br></div><div>First off, I'm not a dev/artist/composer by profession - I'm actually in the legal field. But I do have a passion for games, and a very infectious friend which practically breathes games. He introduced em to the site, and informed me of some of the happenings regarding SAGDev and the current site.</div><div><br></div><div>I would suggest that the community buckles up, registers an NGO or association and get things legalised. The community can then register the site and any other trademarks, intellectual property (even the domain name) etc to the NGO, and it will stay their property regardless.</div><div><br></div><div>This will prevent a situation where an individual is able to pull the plug on a community site, and point the traffic to his own website.</div><div><br></div><div>I would therefore suggest that a NGO is registered in any event, for the community's own protection. Despite the good intentions of [enter host name here], there is always a risk that the relationship might turn sour at some stage in the future, and it is important to safeguard against such an event.</div>

LexAquillia

<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Hey @kreepo, </font><div style="font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; "><br></div><div><font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">Glad to see another legal person on the boards! I'm in the process of drafting a constitution for a Common Law Association at the moment. A Not for Profit Company is probably over-kill at the moment. Do you have experience in the NGO space (I mainly do IP and Software Dev)? Also where you based? </font></div>

[Deleted User]

Hey Lex<div><br></div><div>I'm not into Corporate or Commercial myself - I'm actually making sure the government does it's job properly, which also explains me referring to NGO's instead of NPO's  :)</div><div><br></div><div>The wife is however - she deals with IP (trademarks, copyright and domain name disputes) as well as quite a lot of corporate matters. We're based in Pretoria.</div><div><br></div><div>I've had a chance to read your other post AFTER I made mine, and agree it doesn't make sense jumping through all the hoop to start up a NPO for a community site. A CLA makes the most sense at the moment, as long as it is properly formalised - a community should outlast the coming and going of individuals, and so should all of it's IP.(thinking with my "shit hits the fan cap on"). Having a seperate entity that can represent the community will go a long way in protecting it, as well as promoting it.</div><div><br></div><div>If you like you can pass the constitution along and I'll have the wife take a look at it - I'll also ask her about the registration procedures and requirements.</div>

LexAquillia

<span style="font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; ">@Kreepo an extra set of eyes is always welcome! As far as registration goes, CLA associations don't need to be registered </span><i style="font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; ">per se</i><font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">. I know in terms of the Nonprofit Organisations Act it could be registered with the </font><span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; text-align: justify; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); ">Nonprofit Organisations Directorate, but it is voluntary, and to my mind premature at the moment. </span><div style="font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; "><span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; text-align: justify; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); "><br></span></div><div style="font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; "><span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; text-align: justify; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); ">As I see it, once the Association is formed the next step would be to register with NOD, but only once we've got a proper member base and the association is chugging along. Once we've grown sufficiently large, we can then go on to convert the CLA to a NPC.</span></div><div style="font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; "><span style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px; text-align: justify; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); "><br></span></div><div style="text-align: justify; "><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 12px;">Out of interest, in your time making sure the government does it job, have you had any dealing with the Films and Publications Board? </span></font></div>

[Deleted User]

Did some quick Google scouring, and those were my exact thoughts. While registration is voluntary, it brings some peace of mind to donors since you will then need to submit yearly reports and your financial books need to be in order. It also opens the door for getting government funding (Trade and Industry and Science and Technology should get on board) and also some tax incentives for donors to make donating even more attractive.<div><br></div><div>These are longer term plans as you've rightly mentioned, so for the time being the CLA will fit the bill perfectly. As we grow, and these oppertunities become available, the community can then reassess the registration process.</div><div><br></div><div>I have not had any dealings with them, but it sounds like I might need to add a "yet" to the back of that sentence :) Send me a PM with the details, perhaps I can assist.</div>

dislekcia

Yup, definitely agreed that the "shit hits the fan" proofing is a very strong motivation for setting things up right this time.<br><br>So what do we need to do to get the CLA off the ground (OMW, tired, kept reversing that acronym)? Should we try and have a community meeting between JHB and CT at some point?<br>

edg3

A meeting with both groups would be cool, we could do it to coincide with one of the big events coming up? (AMAZE/rAge/...)<br>

LexAquillia

<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">@Dislekcia In order to form a CLA we need three people to "agree" to form the association. To make it more official we would want the CLA to adopt a formal constitution (I'm in the process of writing one).</font><div style="font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; "><br></div><div><font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">That being said, I'd like as much of the community to be present to adopt the resolution and "vote" in the "board". The sooner we can do this the better. We could wait for A-MAZE, but I picture holding the first meeting on IRC or someother online platform. </font></div><div><font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2"><br></font></div><div><font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">I'll try get the constitution up by tonight for people to start looking at, after that we need to to set a date for the meeting (be it at A-MAZE or online).</font></div><div><font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2"><br></font></div><div><font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2"><br></font></div>

[Deleted User]

The only thing we need to set the CLA up is a constitution that the members can agree to -  a CLA does not need to be registered like a company or a trust. Lex is drafting one, which he'll pass around for an eye-over once it's done. Once it's done I thought it might be a good idea to include this in the registration procedure as a T&C that you agree to before joining, as well as a sticky post somewhere for future reference for members.<div><br></div><div>Meeting during such an event is an excellent idea - two birds with one plane.</div><div><br></div><div>*EDIT: Just saw Lex's post - and THAT is why you shouldn't take a whole morning to type a reply :)<br><div><br></div></div>

[Deleted User]

Hey all!

Been away from SAGD for a long while - was all the politics that closed the site down to do with joining IGDA? What did I miss?

Anyway - this site is a cool new initiative.

Chris

edg3

There wasn't consent with where to take the community as well as how to brand it (due to the sponsored hosting wanting a prominant banner). Basically the previous issues resurfaced as part of the lack of a common middleground between the parties involved and Korax ended up closing down SAGD.

Make Games SA is trying to be a neutral entity where we make games :)

That should (hopefully) cover the short and sweet version.

[Deleted User]

Thanks edg3.

Then as some said previously, a new beginning. I like the simplicity of this site so far. Painless to register and navigate. Cheers to those involved.

Landman

Sad to hear about SAGD. I wasn't really an active user but it was nice to pop in and see what' happening in the local game scene. Heck. I would've been happy to plonk SAGD on my server.

Which company was supplying the hosting if someone knows?

Otherwise, Make Games SA seems to be an active community. Would be good to turn this site into a thriving community!

Landman

dislekcia

@Landman: SAGD was never a good representation of the local game development scene. Everyone that was actually making games was doing so elsewhere ;)