7 Day Roguelike / Procedural Death Jam

edg3

As the title states, from 8 March 2014 these 7 day jams (which cover the same time period) are taking place:
http://proceduraldeathjam.com/

Procedural Death Jam is a 7-day game jam benefitting OpenGameArt’s recent Patreon campaign. The theme is "Procedural Death Labyrinth," a new way of describing games like FTL, Spelunky, Coin Crypt, The Binding of Isaac, etc, that’s less awkward than "Rogue-Like-LIKE" or "Rogue-LITE." You might have seen it trending on Steam Tags.

You can read more about the "PDL" moniker, learn about the rules, get answers to your questions, or submit your game!

The jam will start on March 8, 2014 at 00:00 Greenwich Mean Time, and run until March 15, 2014 at 23:59.

And
http://www.roguebasin.com/index.php?title=7DRL | http://www.roguebasin.com/index.php?title=7DRL_Challenge_2014

A Seven Day Roguelike is a roguelike created in seven days. This means the author stopped writing code one hundred and sixty eight hours after they started writing code.

Seven Day Roguelikes are, for roguelike authors, what 24 hour comics would be to comic authors. (cf. 24hourcomics.com)

They are also for roguelike authors what the National Novel Writing Month is for novel writers. (cf. nanowrimo.org)

EvanGreenwood

Ick. "Procedural Death Labyrinth" doesn't describe FTL well at all, or for that matter a game like Risk of Rain. I hope the term doesn't catch on.

dislekcia

I love the PDL name :)

@BlackShipsFilltheSky: It's a labyrinth if it's randomly generated. The random nodes in FTL? The random levels in RoR? Labyrinth is better than maze, and it's certainly a better descriptor for FTL than roguelikelikelikelike ;)

EvanGreenwood

The Risk of Rain levels are prebuilt though.

I agree that "roguelikelikelikelike" is a rubbish descriptor, but that doesn't mean that "Procedural Death Labyrinth" is a good descriptor.

What about a "YOLO"?

As in https://twitter.com/rocketcatgames/status/428692566490357760

dislekcia

Hah! People suggested that too on the Gama article that PDLs came from. I think that trying to be too descriptive is a problem with genres, I like how PDLjam is trying to say "Make cool shit that falls outside the regular bounds of the 7DRL" because that's neat. I don't want to start using PDL-like ;)

Also, I thought RoR was random... They're not? (I've only watched Aeq play)

Tuism

Procedural Experience ? PDL sounds more epic though :)

EvanGreenwood

dislekcia said:

I think that trying to be too descriptive is a problem with genres

[TLDR] Yeah, I think that's why I prefer YOLO, because "Procedural Death Labyrinth" is too descriptive (and I also don't want to start using PDL-like either) : )

The levels in Risk of Rain are prebuilt... but there are two to three possible levels that it chooses from each time you progress (and I think there are a couple secret context based levels), and the powerups do change positions. But you essentially make no choices as to your progression through the levels (which is where the labyrinth analogy falls a bit flat) and the little exploration there is (for powerups) is framed as a risk-reward problem because you're always fighting the clock. The replayability primarily comes from the different power-ups you receive in each session and their synergies.

There is plenty of randomness/proceduralness in RoR though, but the structures of the levels are static and the levels that you play in are chosen for you. I think it's conceivable that a game could have even more static levels than RoR (like Dark-Souls on Hardcore Mode), or simply give the player few spacial constraints (like a roguelike version of Uplink), and still feel like a roguelikelikelikelike. "YOLO" would still be a fine descriptor.

Assuming that RoR doesn't fit a "PDL", then it might be a "PDP" a "Procedural Death Platformer"... I think this is kind of awkward, though useable. However I like the "Procedural Death X" naming convention less than I like the "YOLO X" alternative.

Though there is definitely appeal in procedurally generated labyrinths themselves. And "Procedural Death Labyrinth" does sound cool.

edg3

PDG? Procedural Death Game?

Personally I just want to stick to "roguelike" as an umbrella term with adjustments to that (note adding "like" or swapping with "lite" though). What the modifiers could be, I am not sure.

Roguelike Platformer.
Roguelike Simulator.

I don't know, I guess, whether I like any of the names or not.

rustybroomhandle

Don't like the "roguelike" term at all. I played Rogue just yesterday - few games that carry the term "roguelike" these days are much like Rogue at all.

Procedural levels and permadeath are just features like ranged combat or HP or flaming unicorns. Spelunky is just a platformer that happens to have these features. (the first ones, not the flaming unicorns) The original Rogue is an RPG dungeon-crawl that happens to have those features too.

So I guess by this same description, PDL falls short too.

Chippit

rustybroomhandle said:

Don't like the "roguelike" term at all. I played Rogue just yesterday - few games that carry the term "roguelike" these days are much like Rogue at all.

Procedural levels and permadeath are just features like ranged combat or HP or flaming unicorns. Spelunky is just a platformer that happens to have these features. (the first ones, not the flaming unicorns)

I agree completely, for exactly these reasons. Roguelike's become synonymous with permadeath, and while I cringe at the phrase, I guess I kind of agree with @BlackShipsFillTheSky that 'YOLO' is actually a better descriptor. Certainly most games that self-label as roguelikes are actually nothing at all like Rogue.

Nethack is Roguelike. Dungeon Crawl is roguelike. But Spelunky is a platformer that has procedural levels and permadeath. Risk of Rain is an action platformer with permadeath. Don't Starve is a procedural top-down survival simulator with permadeath. None of those are roguelikes in my mind.

I vote we reclaim the common typo 'rougelike', and just make sure every death is communicated to the player with a red screen.

EvanGreenwood

@Chippit Yeah, I was looking up Roguelike the other day, and was surprised at how strict the definition was meant to be:

http://www.giantbomb.com/roguelike/3015-1065/

"Roguelike" has obviously come to be used very loosely, to the point that it often conveys little more than "This game has permadeath and each playthrough has different conditions".

rustybroomhandle

Or we could just submit to the madness and perhaps also go back to referring to FPS' as "Doom-clones".

EvanGreenwood

"Doomlikes"

Chippit

Doomlikes, Dunelikes, Roguelikes and Zeldalikes. All bases covered. We can go home now! All games that will ever be made have already been made. :D

dislekcia

Chippit said:

Doomlikes, Dunelikes, Roguelikes and Zeldalikes. All bases covered. We can go home now! All games that will ever be made have already been made. :D

Unolikes. Chesslikes. Puzzlelikes. TIMlikes...

I dunno, I'm fine with genres and collective names doing the thing that they're supposed to do: Help people communicate what a game is like to play to people who might also like that sort of thing. I don't like the idea that genres are this policed stratification of game concepts because I fail to see how that helps anyone.

If we end up with better games to play (and point me to a better game than Spelunky) because someone wanted to make a platformer that was also a roguelike in some fashion, then fucking awesome - keep doing that. If it helps me to say that a game that's heavily inspired by roguelike gameplay is a puzzle-roguelike, then why can't I do that? Even if the gameplay is different, that's kinda the point! If all gameplay was the same, then what the hell is the point of coming up with new games at all?

"Roguelike" as a term encapsulates how playing something like Rogue feels: Anxiety over death, not knowing what's going to happen next, wonder and triumph and skill and fucking gods and hilarity and hope and sudden but inevitable betrayal... "FPS" doesn't say shit about what a game feels like to play (unless you get motion sickness) and that makes us poorer as players.

What feelings would "Doomlike" encapsulate? I think we could make a pretty cool argument for "Doomlike" being different to "Unreallike". "Roguelike" is pretty much about arguing anyway because playing a roguelike is basically an argument with the game in the first place.

(Also, the arguments over the Berlin Interpretation are hilariopants)

Chippit

dislekcia said:

Chippit said:

Doomlikes, Dunelikes, Roguelikes and Zeldalikes. All bases covered. We can go home now! All games that will ever be made have already been made. :D

I dunno, I'm fine with genres and collective names doing the thing that they're supposed to do: Help people communicate what a game is like to play to people who might also like that sort of thing. I don't like the idea that genres are this policed stratification of game concepts because I fail to see how that helps anyone.

If we end up with better games to play (and point me to a better game than Spelunky) because someone wanted to make a platformer that was also a roguelike in some fashion, then fucking awesome - keep doing that. If it helps me to say that a game that's heavily inspired by roguelike gameplay is a puzzle-roguelike, then why can't I do that? Even if the gameplay is different, that's kinda the point! If all gameplay was the same, then what the hell is the point of coming up with new games at all?

"Roguelike" as a term encapsulates how playing something like Rogue feels: Anxiety over death, not knowing what's going to happen next, wonder and triumph and skill and fucking gods and hilarity and hope and sudden but inevitable betrayal... "FPS" doesn't say shit about what a game feels like to play (unless you get motion sickness) and that makes us poorer as players.

That's basically my point, really. I agree wholeheartedly that words that describe how to compare games to each other are immensely valuable. I wrote an article on this very topic a few months back. The problem isn't that the terms exist, it's that (as you say of FPS) they don't really serve to say 'hey I like this thing and I want other things like it'. I like FPSes, but I don't like Counter Strike. I like RPGs, but I don't like Neverwinter Nights. I like action platformers, but I don't like Rogue Legacy. Our commonly used genre names aren't really doing a good job of grouping similar games together in the way that they should, and I'm all for investigating new (and hopefully better) ways to describe and group individual games in few words.

EDIT:
Also, TIMlikes is great. I will from this day forward forever call Rube-Goldberg-Chain-Reaction-Domino-Delight-Simulators this.

rustybroomhandle

I think @dislekcia just tried to sell Flappy Bird as a roguelike. Sold! Next up: "metroidvania".

Tuism

Despite Diablo sharing tons of elements with roguelikes, I wouldn't call it a rougelike. (though does the permadeath hardcore mode automagically turn it into a roguelike?)

Dark/Demon Souls are a lot less like roguelikes, but I'd say that (judging by the above explanation of roguelikes) it fits a roguelike better than Diablo.

Genrefying is nice when it works to convey an aesthetic, though so much stuff are beyond classification. Then they become the next descriptor, I guess :)

Chippit

Tuism said:

Despite Diablo sharing tons of elements with roguelikes, I wouldn't call it a rougelike. (though does the permadeath hardcore mode automagically turn it into a roguelike?)

Dark/Demon Souls are a lot less like roguelikes, but I'd say that (judging by the above explanation of roguelikes) it fits a roguelike better than Diablo.

I think the original Diablo is far closer to Rogue - very obviously inspired by it in many ways - than many games that have defined themselves (or have been defined) as roguelikes in this discussion. FTL and Don't Starve being two notable examples. Diablo 2 since became its own thing, a few steps removed from Rogue and the roguelike aesthetic, but Diablo 1 was a pretty good example of a roguelike, imo.

dislekcia

Everyone should know that Diablo used to be a turn-based roguelike, right? That's some apocryphal game design lore, right there.

I've also always used Action RPG or ARPG as a label for the Diablo/Titan Quest/Torchlight sort of games. It's one of my favorite "genres" to play and dabble in.

Fengol

Would letting other people control the experience count as roguelike if it's not procedural

Pixel_Reaper

So guys... I don't mean to be rude, but maybe it would be better to take the genre discussion to a separate thread of it's own? The original topic has kinda been drowned out.

Who is thinking about participating in the jams?

edg3

Well, it is an important discussion in terms of what games you CAN make for the jams.

If I have a few hours I might rough something up, but I have a game project that I am sinking my available time into at the moment that I would rather work on. If I come up with something that could be fantastic for 7DRL I will probably make some free time to work on it, but as it stands my roguelike ideas are being sunk into my own game which will take a while to build up.

Pixel_Reaper

I'm pretty excited about it, so i'll probably try to put in some after hours work on a idea. Want to try something with room tiles, instead of generating everything with wall and floor tiles. Also want to see about something with unlockable "cards" as a reward.

rumor

I think SIJO will be entering this one :) I have been wanting to do some random generation stuff for a while.

edg3

Pixel_Reaper said:

Also want to see about something with unlockable "cards" as a reward.

This is actually the monetization strategy I want to take with the roguelike I am working on. I am going to do Binding of Isaac style unlocks via cards that you can trade and gift to people (via NFC or the likes thereof) to get game content, but everything is available through game playthroughs. There would be an IAP to buy a booster once a day to unlock cards, you can then as a player see what cards are in the booster to see what it is you want to get cards wise.

Let me know how your experimentation goes :)

Pixel_Reaper

edg3 said:

Pixel_Reaper said:

Also want to see about something with unlockable "cards" as a reward.

This is actually the monetization strategy I want to take with the roguelike I am working on. I am going to do Binding of Isaac style unlocks via cards that you can trade and gift to people (via NFC or the likes thereof) to get game content, but everything is available through game playthroughs. There would be an IAP to buy a booster once a day to unlock cards, you can then as a player see what cards are in the booster to see what it is you want to get cards wise.

Let me know how your experimentation goes :)

Mmm, I was thinking along very similar lines, Although I won't use it as a monetization strategy. I purely want to use an in game currency system, I plan to use these jams for a lot of experimenting :P

Ill have to see how far I can push it with the time I'll have, but if i can find some way to host a server then I'd like to add multiplayer, that would make looking into an auction house for the cards similar to the one found in World of Warcraft pretty sweet. It would be awesome if I can achieve some kind of economy run by players :D

Most probably everything is going to turn out way too ambitious and I will end up not finishing it within the 7 day time frame :) like usual

Pixel_Reaper

*double post :( sorry...

Tuism

Awwww shiiit Crawl looks amazing :D

I have an idea. Been toying with tetris....

So what is roguelike? Procedural generation, progression, permadeath? I wanna make a procedurally generated landscape that you get through with tetris skills. How? Clearing rows = progression, blocks and terrain = randomly generated... Hmmmmm...

7 days... Damn, dunno if I have time to do this...

konman

I have a particular soft-spot (it has a hard-spot for me) for Rogue-likes and brutally hard and unforgiving games. Guess I'm a masochist. I have pre-ordered Dark Souls 2 and Teleglitch was my last steam purchase. Have been eye-balling "Risk-of-Rain" for a while as well. The name "Procedural Death Labyrinth" does sound exotic and conflicts with my natural inclination to resist change away from Rogue-like. So I am on the fence on this one.

Procedural generation of content is fascinating. It implies replay-ability, but it is pretty hard to get right - for me at least. Just want to design everything in Tiled and hit the launch button. Would be very interested to see what the local indie devs can come up with on this topic.

Fengol

I can't decide whether I should create a PDL in a console app in C# or JavaScript using rot.js but I'm keen to make something simple

edg3

@Fengol: The one thing that C# for console doesn't do great out the box is writing characters to certain parts of the window. I remember there was a curses port that helped, though I am not 100% sure what it was called.

edg3

@tuism:
http://www.roguebasin.com/index.php?title=What_a_roguelike_is

Most people judge via the Berlin Interpretation: http://www.roguebasin.com/index.php?title=Berlin_Interpretation
Their major factors they consider for if something is a roguelike are:

Random environment generation

Permadeath

Turn-based

Grid-based

Non-modal

Complexity

Resource management

Hack'n'slash

Exploration and discovery

That being said, the grounds of these being in the name "roguelike" implying that the game is like the original Rogue.

Fengol

@edg3 What's wrong with Console.SetCursorPosition

edg3

Fengol said:

@edg3 What's wrong with Console.SetCursorPosition

I have had issues with it in the past (though I cannot remember what exactly), I think it was to do with the speed? I suppose it could be better now, it has been a while since I last needed to move around in a console.

konman

On the topic of procedural generated worlds or random environment generation, I came across this interesting article that makes random cave like level generation seem relatively straight-forward to implement. I intend to build a prototype and expand on the code examples he provides... mmmh. He also mentions being able to place items in a random generated world, which I would think is very hard to achieve... apparently not :)

Tuism

There's also a very good article by the Vlambeer guys about procedural level generation for Wasteland Kings, however their site's currently going to http://www.gofundme.com/brandonnn in support of Venus Patrol's founder who got screwed by his medical aid company after getting cancer (srsly wtf). So can't link that at the moment... well, here's google's cached version:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:_ldattIqAnkJ:www.vlambeer.com/2013/04/02/random-level-generation-in-wasteland-kings/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=za

Then there was the Spelunky level generation article:
http://indiestatik.com/2013/12/09/spelunkys-level-generator-works/

Both very good. Share more if you have :)

edg3

This is the one I am butchering for my own purposes: http://www.evilscience.co.uk/?p=624

Another one I toyed with takes perlin noise and builds a map according to heights and layering different heights to place cities and dungeons. I have since given up on that as it is not ideal for implementation on anything you want to run on slower hardware reliably. The code for that I would be willing to share if I didnt lose the had drive with it on (I for some reason didnt back it up like I have with all my other code), the algo is simple:
- Start with a single layer, choose a "height" (you may need to normalise your perlin noise to have this work efectively), everything above that height become solid land, everything below that will be water. You can use the heightmap for the land to work out where peaks are and so on. Traditionaly though for this I find voronoi better than perlin.
- Each next layer will take every peak and every dip from perlin noise and use them as placements for towns or dungeons, you can use this layering to do multiple things.

And from reading /r/roguelikedev for ages, here are some of the things that are cool and interesting:
- http://www.reddit.com/r/roguelikedev/comments/1x2ujp/procedural_dungeon_generation_explained_now_on/
- http://www.evilscience.co.uk/?p=553
- http://www.evilscience.co.uk/?p=53
- http://www.evilscience.co.uk/?p=225
- In fact a lot of evilscience stuff: http://www.evilscience.co.uk/?cat=5
- http://gamedevelopment.tutsplus.com/tutorials/how-to-make-your-first-roguelike--gamedev-13677

I have other links and resources somewhere. Will post back here when I remember where.

Fengol

You can explore the empty 10 levels of my crappy rogue-like. It's a rogue-like in the truest sense of the word in that I'm, as far as possible, emulating rogue/nethack.

Still lots to do but I hope by the end of the jam to at least have the win/lose conditions, melee combat and potions.

Fengol

I just got pointed to Roguelike Radio - Episode 86: How to Make a Unique 7DRL