Shader workshop JHB - Poll

Fengol

I'm polling for who would be interested in paying for and attending a workshop teaching shaders, in Unity3D, in the March/April period in Johannesburg?

The workshop would be a couple of half-day Saturdays and include: the basics, mobile optimization and post-effects.

I'm organising for a local developer to teach the workshop.

The primary reason for a cost is to keep the students serious and also pay for the developer's time and effort preparing the workshop.

Is there anything else in the workshop you'd like to learn, related to shaders?

Unity3D experience and some programming knowledge would be a pre-requisite for attending.

People Interested:
[list=1]
[*] @Tuism
[*] @Bensonances
[*] @Gazza_N
[*] @hermantulleken
[*] @Karuji
[*] @Nitrogen
[*] @Stray_Train
[*] @DarkRa88iT
[*] @duncanbellsa
[*] @SUGBOERIE
[*] @edg3
[/list]

Tuism

Depending on cost and date, I'm most likely in! :)

tbulford

@Fengol who is the local dev you getting?

Fengol

@tbulford, at the moment I'm chatting to @Chippit who's keen to provide the workshop if there's enough interest. He's a contractor whose worked on Bladeslinger and other projects.

Bensonance

If it the Shader language used is 'GLSL ES' then I'm definitely in. :)

That's the language GM: S uses as well, so I'd love to learn it so I can use Shaders in both Unity and Gamemaker :).

Rigormortis

I would love to attend, but I won't be able to do bits and pieces over a few Saturdays. Any chance we can just do it in a big 'ol chunk over one weekend? SHADER JAM! :P

It also depends on date and price for me.

Chippit

The shader language used by Unity is CG, which by crude description is something like a hybrid of HLSL and GLSL. In a practical sense, though, understanding the philosophies behind how ANY shader language works gives you one helluva headstart when moving to any other.

So even if you couldn't copy and paste a Unity shader into GM, if you could write one for CG, you could write the same thing in GLSL without too much trouble.

Gazza_N

I'm in.

hermantulleken

So am I.

Karuji

Sounds good!

Nitrogen

Me four.

Stray_Train

I'm keen

DarkRa88iT

Same as several others, my attendance will depend on price and dates. But I'm definitely interested :)

CodeCthulhu

Price and dates depending, but I'd love to!

duncanbellsa

I'd most definitely be keen!

How much Unity knowledge is required?
I've only recently started looking into Unity, so I'm not the most proficient with it.

Fengol

duncanbellsa said:

How much Unity knowledge is required?

Don't quote me, but I think at least you need to know how to compose a scene, how to apply materials to game objects, and how to create and manage project files.

Fengol

Rigormortis said:

Any chance we can just do it in a big 'ol chunk over one weekend?

The format of the workshop hasn't been finalized yet and it'll depend on the amount of content that needs to be shared. I love the idea of a Shader Jam though; reminds me of the old demoscene days

tbulford

Fengol said:

The format of the workshop hasn't been finalized yet and it'll depend on the amount of content that needs to be shared. I love the idea of a Shader Jam though; reminds me of the old demoscene days

Were you part of the old demo scene her in South Africa? I was involved between 1994 and 1998

Fengol

@tbulford, I was just an admirer, I never never how they did it

tbulford

BTW I might consider this for Nico and myself. Depends on costs and time

Gazza_N

@Fengol: What are we looking at in terms of rough pricing at this point?

Also, if we preorder this course, do we get a shiny Chippit figurine and exclusive shader code? :P

Fengol

Gazza_N said:

Also, if we preorder this course, do we get a shiny Chippit figurine and exclusive shader code? :P

We have a variety of pre-orders depending on the vendor and SKU you choose. None are guaranteed upon release and we'll just blame shipping, insufficient quantity and/or miscommunication if asked.

However, if you pay an extra fee you can pre-order the workshop's DLC which we will definitely, probably have; when and if we get around to it.

In all seriousness though, we're still working out the agenda which will affect the cost. Is there anything anyone specifically wants to learn regarding shaders?

Gazza_N

I can't speak for the others, but in my case it's very much a case of not knowing what I don't know. It's hard to pinpoint specifics when you aren't aware of all the possibilities beyond wibbling pixels about really quickly.

Perhaps those with shader experience could suggest additional topics?

Fengol

We're looking at about R150 per student and about a 8 hour workshop, probably split over 2 days (Saturday, Sunday or 2 Saturdays).

The really big factor is the amount of content that you want to get out. I'll put a course plan up on the first post and if there's anything you want to see added please comment.

dislekcia

Hmmm. I might be interested in this, but only if it was over the same weekend. And also not during GDC.

Tuism

@dislekcia are you coming to Jozi?

Also, I'm so in!

As for what questions to ask, I'm coming from a completely non-understanding point of view. If there's a bare basics tutorial somewhere to get everyone up to some kind of uniform level before we go workshopping, I guess that'd be great :)

Heck I understand the principle of Shaders (@Elyaradine's ice baby comes to mind, also, Ghost Lamp), but I've no idea how it gets to that.

Elyaradine

I haven't actually worked through these, but the UnityGems noob guide to shaders seemed pretty good at a glance.

I just think that they do lots of stock, standard stuff, which I feel doesn't really illustrate the idea that you're just using some data and manipulating it in whatever the heck way you want before turning it into pixels. But maybe you need those building blocks before doing something more creative...? I dunno. I think it'd at least push you in the direction of knowing what it is that you don't know, at least.

SUGBOERIE

Throw me in the mix.

Gazza_N

My understanding was that this would be an entry-level workshop to get those of us with zero to minimal shader knowledge up to scratch with the theory and basic implementation + a dollop of Chappat hax. We don't need to swot up excessively beforehand, do we?

Tuism

Well even though I'm utterly utterly noob at shaders (as in, if basic knowledge was ground floor I'm in Moria), I'd like a workshop to be something I couldn't just tutorial through to learn, and hopefully that equates to some kind of basic knowledge. What @Elya posted above seems good, though I need to look deeper into it to really know.

I'm really talking about basic basics, not semi useful yet :p

I dunno what everyone else thinks about it though, I'm one opinion :) what say everyone else?

Stray_Train

Adding to the link @Elyaradine posted, I recommend this series over on CG cookie

Chippit

I think this will be largely beginner level, with the only assumed knowledge being you all know how to program. This is to say, I expect to cover fundamentals unless everyone present is already comfortable with those.

An important question is how theoretical everyone is interested in getting. I personally feel having a theoretical understanding of how graphics hardware works and USES these shaders is important for optimisation, and solid knowledge of how shaders interact with 3D engines like Unity help you when you want to create your own effects from scratch. That said, though, that doesn't get you making pretty things very fast. How does everyone feel about that?

DarkRa88iT

Gazza_N said:

I can't speak for the others, but in my case it's very much a case of not knowing what I don't know.

Yes! Not know what there is to know is a serious problem. I think a basic understanding of the technical side is important. However, going into too much detail would be interesting, but ultimately leave you with very little practical knowledge. For me, it's important to be armed with the tools that will enable me to experiment. I strongly believe being spoon-fed some very specific pieces of code to recreate very specific shaders is of rather little use when you don't understand the underlying tools that were used to create them.

On a side note, at that price, I'm definitely in. Also, I think it'll be good to have the 2 sessions in the same weekend.

Chippit

DarkRa88iT said:

For me, it's important to be armed with the tools that will enable me to experiment. I strongly believe being spoon-fed some very specific pieces of code to recreate very specific shaders is of rather little use when you don't understand the underlying tools that were used to create them.

You will never find me in disagreement of this point.

Gazza_N

Nor I. That's ultimately what I'd be looking to get out of this - sufficient understanding of the fundamentals from which I can effectively derive my own code and techniques.

Tuism

Yep yep, I agree with the above - I need basically a springboard from which to jump off, and an understanding of what works and how it works... lego bricks, for me to build my own mecha, whether biped, armoured, or rockets :)

1. Practicalness is important
2. ...I guess practicalness is the most important. For me :)

SkinnyBoy

I only used unity for a month in 2010, but since shaders are the same everywhere let me give a bit review on books I read on shaders.

Introduction to 3D Game Programming with DirectX 9, 10 or 11 - Frank Luna
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This books are the heart of 3d graphics associated gaming. Everything is covered in this books. Directx9 covers shader 2.0, on top on vertex and pixel/fragment shaders Direct3d10 book adds on geometry shaders and directx11 book continues on compute shaders. This books may be read in any order that you like as they are independent of each other.... What I like about this books is the manner the topics are covered. In each topic Frank starts with theory behind the topic, then the mathematics used for the idea, then the math turns into algorithm and finally the algorithm into implementation. So you never get to miss why you would do anything the way you do.... Although you may not like directx or c++, I recommend that any developer should read this book at least ones. visit http://d3dcoder.net to find more about this books and screenshots of shaders you'll build.

HLSL Development Cookbook - Doron Feinstein
------------------------------------------------------------------
covers things like Dynamic decals, Rain, Screen space Sun rays, Screen space ambient occlusion, HDR rendering, Bloom, Cascaded shadow maps, Point light PCF shadows, Deferred Shading and others. This book is rather an advanced book unlike Frank Lunas book, you only read it if you want to quickly implement a particular shader, this book uses directx11 as a base, but lot of directx code will be hidden as it's focus is on shaders.


Programming Vertex Geometry and Pixel Shaders - Wolfgang Engel, Jack Hoxley, Ralf Kornmann, Niko Suni, Jason Zink
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This book assumes that you already know directx9 and advances you to directx10. only basic shaders are covered in this book.
Wait a minute, did you notice one of the famous guys who is a Lead graphics programmer at RockStar games? This book is also available free online, I forgot the link, but the first link on google will be the pdf.

GPU Gems 3 - Nvidia
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Another advanced book on shaders. This one was written by more than 50 researcher on rendering. It covers all types of shaders from hlsl, glsl, cg. The most amazing thing about this book was on human skin rendering, I haven't seen this technology been used yet in games. Maybe Xbox 1 will change the scene. I mean that skin looked like it has been pre-rendered but everything was at runtime, amaizing... You can also read this book online, just go nvidia.com and go to developers section.


its time for me to sleep so I'll give more reviews on other books when I wake up, You can also check more reviews on Amazon.
Here is a list.........

Practical renderind with DirectX 11 - Jason Zink, Matt Pettineo, Jack Hoxley 2011
Microsoft XNA 4.0 Game Development Cookbook - Luke Drumm
3D Graphics with XNA Game Studio 4.0 - Sean James
XNA 3.0 Game Programming Recipes - Riemer Grootjans
Building XNA 2.0 Games A Practical Guide for Independent Game Development - James Silva and John Sedlak

edg3

<-- is interested.

In terms of the content, I would have to agree that getting the tools to experiment would be best. I am similarly in the boat where the topic interests me but I lack sufficient knowledge to have an idea of what I would want to learn. Having the tools to experiment and having some knowledge of how to put the tools and experimentation to practice would be ideal, if I could fiddle with shaders and eventually use them in a game that I make it would be an added win for me.

EDIT: I forgot to note that my work schedule might interfere with Saturday's one some weekends, if that is an issue then perhaps I should wait for the next one :(

Fengol

I want to know how @Elyaradine did the pulse thing in the GGJ14 game Echo: A Journey Within, Without. I just about get how to a basic shader but I don't know how to do "dynamic" shaders like this one.

Tuism

@Elyaradine performed a miracle and the darkness parted to reveal the light, that's what happened @_@

Chippit

1x sonar effect. Check.

dislekcia

SkinnyBoy said:

I only used unity for a month in 2010, but since shaders are the same everywhere let me give a bit review on books I read on shaders.

Yeah, don't worry, it's not changed at all in the intervening years... ?

Back on topic:

I can write shaders. I want to get better at implementing shaders in Unity, learn from people who do that all the time and stress test some shader needs I have with said experienced peeps. I am totally fine with going over the basics first to enable that though.

Tuism

While we're taking requests :P

Ghost Lamp 3D pixels effect? It *seems* easy enough given the knowledge, (i'm guessing each pixel has a layer of 4, each of their opacity is adjusted by an average value of angle of light falling on it x strength of light) but I dunno how to express that in... Anything, lol :P

TheFuntastic

I would be down so hard if this were in CT. Any chance of a skype link up or something like that? Or a video recording?

Gazza_N

Chippit's notoriously camera shy. We'll have to pay him double. :P

I'm quite keen on dissecting ye olde classic cel-shading... uh... shader myself, as well as toon outlines a-la Borderlands. Those have a lot of potential uses.

Fengol

I have another request but I don't know if it's shader related; in Banished when you select a 3D building it's outlined perpendicular to the screen, even when you rotate the camera. I suspect it's similar to the toon shader that outlines models, but I don't understand how you can manipulate the mesh.

Would it be possible to also talk about occlusion outlining?

Tuism

@Fengol, not quite seeing in my mind what you mean, you mean there's dark outline on the object, no matter which way you rotate it? Like a regular Naruto game anime style shading?

So like... get the shape of the object, grow it by x pixels, put it under the original object?

hermantulleken

Personally, I would be very happy with some basics, to know where to plug in some math, and in particular how the different Unity shader stuff fits together (and how it relates to other shader stuff). I have been parading as a game programmer for 8 years and have only hacked together the odd simple variation on found-code. Will be nice to get some proper knowledge in place and kinda know what I'm doing in the shader department. (I'd also like to know all of the above things, plus @Elyaradine 's metal shader).

Fengol

Notice the outline of the building selected

LexAquillia

@Fengol what's that from? It looks like my kinda game...

Fengol

@LexAquillia, it is! Built by a single developer. Banished coming February 18, 2014