Hey @LexAquillia, @dislekcia, Would really appreciate your opinion, if you wouldnt mind....might be quite helpfull to others as well... My employer has updated their contracts to conform to POPI and have asked me to sign on the line again.
I currently have permision from my employer, under the ''Exclusive Service" clause, to develop games in my own time. However, the revised contract has become more restrictive with regards to IP and their "Copyright and Invenions" and I need to include an exclusion to protect my own IP from them.
Below is the clause: The employee hereby assigns to the Employer the total right, title and interest in and to any copyright in any existing or future works or part thereof of whatsoever nature that the employee, individually or jointly with any other person(s), will make or will create during the course and scope of his/her employment at _________.
Would it be enough for me to end the clause with 'with the exception to any and all game development by the employee.'
Or should I just add a sub-point or two, stating that 'anything produced by me, with regards to game development, is owned by the employee(me) and that the employer 'Company Name' will have no claims to, rights over, or to any copyright over, works produced by the employee, in terms of game development'
Will that be enough to protect myself whilst still moonlighting?
Something like: The employee hereby assigns to the Employer the total right, title and interest in and to any copyright in existing and future works that the employee is involved in as a representative of the Employer, or in a capacity assigned by the Employer to produce new intellectual property on behalf of the Employer during the course and scope of his/her employment at _____.
I'd add a follow-up clause: The Employer undertakes not to make claim on rights, titles or interests in and to any copyright in existing and future works that the employee is involved in in a personal capacity in which it can be argued that the employee does not represent the Employer in any way during and prior to the course and scope of his/her employment at _____.
If anyone gives you shit, say "If I write a song, under the current contract, the company owns it. If I write a website or a blog, the company owns that. That's not okay, I want to be able to make things without having to worry about who owns them."
It might make sense to put in a legal clause there that says future IP rights on non-work-related projects are not the subject of this agreement and would require their own negotiated contracts, but that would essentially just bait them into wanting you to allow them at least a right of first refusal on anything you do. Which is not the goal at all...
You should probably wait for @LexAquillia to weigh in - he's the actual lawyer. I just put things that I like in contracts and see what reactions they get.
This is a sobering thread. I work for an US media corporation and while I have never looked closely at my employment contract (stupid I know) in the past I have been published by independent publishers and this has never been an issue.
@LexAquillia mentioned that “games are classified as "cinematographic film" and not software” so I probably need to sit down with them. Should it become an issue which law applies - US or SA? I am a SA citizen and reside in SA - but this is almost certainly irrelevant as the contract was signed in the States.
I have naively assumed that they would be cool with my current project because of my previous ventures and the juvenile notion that game development is so far out of their sphere as open heart surgery would be.
Scary to think that after several years of work, mounting capital investment and dreaming big it could all be taken away.
@konman congratulations for taking the leap of faith and I wish you luck and success.
Most companies have clauses that state anything you create while working there is property of theirs. Especially in IT companies with development departments for some odd reason.
I was in a similar boat. When i worked at a IT company i told my boss about my gaming stuff. He said there will be repercussions. So i went to the CEO and the other founding member of the company directly. I told them this is what i'm doing.
They gave their blessing and said the manager guy can F off. I learned how to make games but soon learned a day job actually takes up a lot of time. So i quit too.
I also started indie dev, except in my situation things did not pan out exactly as planned. Im bankrupt... lost my car, eat really crap food, picking up weight due to crap diet. But im hanging in there and hoping to get a break soon and maybe even buy some transport again.
Moral of the story is... sleep less work more. Or have a portfolio for freelance work. Something i knew i needed but hey... so we learn.
I also started indie dev, except in my situation things did not pan out exactly as planned. Im bankrupt... lost my car, eat really crap food, picking up weight due to crap diet. But im hanging in there and hoping to get a break soon and maybe even buy some transport again.
Just as an aside, you really might want to be more careful about your health. Making games is maybe not quite a calling that you should sacrifice yourself to - take care of yourself first, games can come afterward.
There's nothing wrong with going into a low-burn lifestyle to prolong your savings while you're trying something, but the only thing you should be burning is money, not resources that are more difficult to replace.
@Isagabe: I wouldn't assume anything. If you're a freelancer, then I don't think they'd put anything in a contract to claim your off-time outputs, that's much more likely if you're a full-time employee. Either way, check your contract. Carefully.
Also, it'll be based on US law (which will apply in this case, because there's probably a clause that says the contract is based on US law and any disputes will be settled in US courts), so games won't be classified as film - that's only a feature of the South African intellectual property case history.
[quote="dislekcia;29004"]@Isagabe: I wouldn't assume anything. If you're a freelancer, then I don't think they'd put anything in a contract to claim your off-time outputs, that's much more likely if you're a full-time employee. Either way, check your contract. Carefully.
Just as an aside, you really might want to be more careful about your health. Making games is maybe not quite a calling that you should sacrifice yourself to - take care of yourself first, games can come afterward.
There's nothing wrong with going into a low-burn lifestyle to prolong your savings while you're trying something, but the only thing you should be burning is money, not resources that are more difficult to replace.
I know it's kind of offtopic but... THIS. SO MUCH THIS.
@Crocopede I did self funded indie game dev for 3 months (April-June 2014) before a huge un-forseen special levy raised b trustees at our flats forced me to abandon the 1 year game dev dream and go back to corporate.
At the new employer (direct competition to previous asshole company) I had a Conflict of Interest Application formalised stating my game dev sideline.
"Your application has been approved. Please note that the approval is valid for a period of 12 Months hence should your situation remain the same after the 22 July 2015 you are kindly requested to complete a new Conflict Of Interest Application."
On the health side... OMW this is soooo relevant it is scary, especially for me today... here's why...
We have an extremely high pressure deadline today with go-live on a mobile app for a client. My team of devs and I have been pushing hard for a few days now and we are 2 weeks over. You know the drill.
I went to the doctor because of a left arm pain this morning... I ended up passing out in the waiting room. *sigh* luckily it seems to be a friggin trapped nerve and the stress etc caused some kind of episode.
Long story short, deadline seems reachable now and the left arm thing seems minor, so....
Look after yourselves people... especially when deadlines are a factor. Go to gym, do that exercise during times of stress.
Going off topic. But agreed. Health is important. Recovered car also. Training again for adventure racing. Diet still crap.
Lets make games.
On topic. Just because a company has the clause does not make it the end all argument. I have witnessed first hand where an employee won a case against the company laying claim to profits made and also the IP of software a dev developed.
But i also witnessed where one of the employees were fired due to having a side business. Then again... i think that was more politics cause that said employee told clients to F off where the rest would promise crazy deadlines and this guy was the only one with enough balls to tell the customers hold up... we cant do it in this amount of time.
Comments
Would really appreciate your opinion, if you wouldnt mind....might be quite helpfull to others as well...
My employer has updated their contracts to conform to POPI and have asked me to sign on the line again.
I currently have permision from my employer, under the ''Exclusive Service" clause, to develop games in my own time.
However, the revised contract has become more restrictive with regards to IP and their "Copyright and Invenions" and I need to include an exclusion to protect my own IP from them.
Below is the clause:
The employee hereby assigns to the Employer the total right, title and interest in and to any copyright in any existing or future works or part thereof of whatsoever nature that the employee, individually or jointly with any other person(s), will make or will create during the course and scope of his/her employment at _________.
Would it be enough for me to end the clause with 'with the exception to any and all game development by the employee.'
Or should I just add a sub-point or two, stating that 'anything produced by me, with regards to game development, is owned by the employee(me) and that the employer 'Company Name' will have no claims to, rights over, or to any copyright over, works produced by the employee, in terms of game development'
Will that be enough to protect myself whilst still moonlighting?
Something like: The employee hereby assigns to the Employer the total right, title and interest in and to any copyright in existing and future works that the employee is involved in as a representative of the Employer, or in a capacity assigned by the Employer to produce new intellectual property on behalf of the Employer during the course and scope of his/her employment at _____.
I'd add a follow-up clause: The Employer undertakes not to make claim on rights, titles or interests in and to any copyright in existing and future works that the employee is involved in in a personal capacity in which it can be argued that the employee does not represent the Employer in any way during and prior to the course and scope of his/her employment at _____.
If anyone gives you shit, say "If I write a song, under the current contract, the company owns it. If I write a website or a blog, the company owns that. That's not okay, I want to be able to make things without having to worry about who owns them."
It might make sense to put in a legal clause there that says future IP rights on non-work-related projects are not the subject of this agreement and would require their own negotiated contracts, but that would essentially just bait them into wanting you to allow them at least a right of first refusal on anything you do. Which is not the goal at all...
I really appreciate your thorough and timely response.
I will let you all know how it unfolds...
This is a sobering thread. I work for an US media corporation and while I have never looked closely at my employment contract (stupid I know) in the past I have been published by independent publishers and this has never been an issue.
@LexAquillia mentioned that “games are classified as "cinematographic film" and not software” so I probably need to sit down with them. Should it become an issue which law applies - US or SA? I am a SA citizen and reside in SA - but this is almost certainly irrelevant as the contract was signed in the States.
I have naively assumed that they would be cool with my current project because of my previous ventures and the juvenile notion that game development is so far out of their sphere as open heart surgery would be.
Scary to think that after several years of work, mounting capital investment and dreaming big it could all be taken away.
@konman congratulations for taking the leap of faith and I wish you luck and success.
Peace.
Especially in IT companies with development departments for some odd reason.
@Konman
I was in a similar boat. When i worked at a IT company i told my boss about my gaming stuff. He said there will be repercussions. So i went to the CEO and the other founding member of the company directly. I told them this is what i'm doing.
They gave their blessing and said the manager guy can F off.
I learned how to make games but soon learned a day job actually takes up a lot of time. So i quit too.
I also started indie dev, except in my situation things did not pan out exactly as planned. Im bankrupt... lost my car, eat really crap food, picking up weight due to crap diet. But im hanging in there and hoping to get a break soon and maybe even buy some transport again.
Moral of the story is... sleep less work more. Or have a portfolio for freelance work. Something i knew i needed but hey... so we learn.
There's nothing wrong with going into a low-burn lifestyle to prolong your savings while you're trying something, but the only thing you should be burning is money, not resources that are more difficult to replace.
Also, it'll be based on US law (which will apply in this case, because there's probably a clause that says the contract is based on US law and any disputes will be settled in US courts), so games won't be classified as film - that's only a feature of the South African intellectual property case history.
Thank you, great advice of course.
At the new employer (direct competition to previous asshole company) I had a Conflict of Interest Application formalised stating my game dev sideline.
"Your application has been approved. Please note that the approval is valid for a period of 12 Months hence should your situation remain the same after the 22 July 2015 you are kindly requested to complete a new Conflict Of Interest Application."
On the health side... OMW this is soooo relevant it is scary, especially for me today... here's why...
We have an extremely high pressure deadline today with go-live on a mobile app for a client. My team of devs and I have been pushing hard for a few days now and we are 2 weeks over. You know the drill.
I went to the doctor because of a left arm pain this morning... I ended up passing out in the waiting room. *sigh* luckily it seems to be a friggin trapped nerve and the stress etc caused some kind of episode.
Long story short, deadline seems reachable now and the left arm thing seems minor, so....
Look after yourselves people... especially when deadlines are a factor. Go to gym, do that exercise during times of stress.
Your health is your wealth...
Recovered car also. Training again for adventure racing. Diet still crap.
Lets make games.
On topic. Just because a company has the clause does not make it the end all argument.
I have witnessed first hand where an employee won a case against the company laying claim to profits made and also the IP of software a dev developed.
But i also witnessed where one of the employees were fired due to having a side business. Then again... i think that was more politics cause that said employee told clients to F off where the rest would promise crazy deadlines and this guy was the only one with enough balls to tell the customers hold up... we cant do it in this amount of time.