Why No One Wants to Join Your Idea

EvanGreenwood · 1:02pm 22 Jun 2012

<div style="background-color: transparent; font-family: Times; font-size: medium; "><span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">Every now and and someone who has very little or no experience in making games decides to start a game development project. <span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; "> </div><div style="background-color: transparent; font-family: Times; font-size: medium; "><span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">And they were consistently shocked when no one wanted to join. <span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; "> </div><div style="background-color: transparent; font-family: Times; font-size: medium; "><span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">I’d like there to be some kind of standard advice that they could be pointed to that would help them understand what they’re doing wrong. <span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: italic; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">Here’s my attempt <img src="https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/78k0PQ-hqgqRRH8Ivn8hBa18Y8tW9Fpyj0FndtHTzi8UYH4Om8iisACqDQkhZA3yNoy2ujCg_7SF2nmkYiMSPX2sAkGPaHvciTVoZ8r7O__FBXqs7LE" width="15px;" height="15px;"> <span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; "> </div><div style="background-color: transparent; font-family: Times; font-size: medium; "><span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">The thing is: <span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: bold; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">You cannot hire someone who has more experience than yourself. <span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">It's an immutable law. People just don’t work that way. <span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; "> </div><div style="background-color: transparent; font-family: Times; font-size: medium; "><span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">People are interested in winning, so they join the projects with the greatest visible potential that their level of experience allows them. If all you have is a good idea then you are behind everyone with <span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: italic; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">ANY <span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">experience who is also struggling to hire experienced developers. <span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; "> </div><div style="background-color: transparent; font-family: Times; font-size: medium; "><span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">The only ways around this is having : <span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">A) A personal relationship with someone with more experience than yourself. Like having a useful brother or best friend who trusts you. <span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">B) Bucketloads of cash. <span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">C) Or be working on a bad ass game with <span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: italic; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">PROVEN <span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">appeal. <span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; "> </div><div style="background-color: transparent; font-family: Times; font-size: medium; "><span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">I stress <span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: italic; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">PROVEN <span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">appeal, because, no matter how cool your game sounds in your head, the person who you are trying to hire already has their own ideas of a cool game they want to work on, and its not your game. Your game has to be demonstrably cool if you are trying to hire someone with any experience. There has to be a playable demo, or a video at the very least.<span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; "> There have to be people eagerly awaiting your game’s release. <span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; "> </div><div style="background-color: transparent; font-family: Times; font-size: medium; "><span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">Having lots of money can allow you to hire people more experienced than yourself, but no one wants to join a doomed adventure, so having a track record <span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: italic; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">IS STILL<span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; "> important. (Unless we’re talking about bottomless pockets.) <span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; "> </div><div style="background-color: transparent; font-family: Times; font-size: medium; "><span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">The reason why utterly inexperienced members asking other members to join them bothers me is this: If you have never been part of a game project then asking anyone to trust in you is terribly irresponsible, and as your project is likely to fail, probably bad for the community. <span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; "> </div><div style="background-color: transparent; font-family: Times; font-size: medium; "><span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">In cases like these its definitely better to <span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">guide these inexperienced hopeful game developer towards achievable goals, rather than encourage their pipedreams. <span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; "> </div><div style="background-color: transparent; font-family: Times; font-size: medium; "><span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">If you are not bless with a middle-eastern prince’s trust-fund that does not stop you from making games. You just have to be realistic. <span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">If you want to start making games with teams of developers the answer is not to try hire all the talent you need on day 1. The answer is: EARN TRUST FIRST<span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">. <span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; "> </div><div style="background-color: transparent; font-family: Times; font-size: medium; "><span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">You earn trust by: <span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">A) Finishing games. <span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">B) Making your results/progress visible (even when they are not finished results). <span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">C) Participating in the community and developing friends and demonstrating knowledge. <span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; "> </div><div style="background-color: transparent; font-family: Times; font-size: medium; "><span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">Your first projects will have to be small. But completing them will allow you to impress people. Your first projects aren’t likely to be very successful, but if you finish them it will allow you to work with other developers who are just starting out, and so your next projects can be slightly bigger more ambitious, and once you’ve finished that you to be able to work with more even experienced developers. <span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">If you are a naturally talented developer you’ll be able to impress people a lot faster and put together a skilled team far faster. But no matter how smart or innately talented you are it is going to take some time and determination. <span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; "> </div><div style="background-color: transparent; font-family: Times; font-size: medium; "><span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">Here’s a graph of earning trust over time to illustrate my point. At the start of each project the person is starting again with their base level of trust, and as they make progress in the project and can show results they accumulate trust. Assuming each project is completed and is somewhat interesting this is a fairly optimistic graph of how a developer’s trust may accumulate.<img src="https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/OsO6WMDvU6SsfnhQPcRT4q51yOcD-7LMmI2BT0ZnWSbdp2ybbgsjKlFosY4sgJRBA-3zJWaKQ4MkZAtpH-slQtUotNMtnGmilCeKXmqLMg6OKAIrEZY" width="800px;" height="719px;"> <span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">There is a chance a truly great game idea will allow you to leapfrog ahead in trust. But you’ll only earn that trust once you can demonstrate the game’s potential. So before you can even hope this will happen you will have to accumulate enough skills to be able to demonstrate the game. Here’s a graph of what it may look like.<img src="https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/9u53E96OZN7DRdhFx1HXuiHbdtM62aekHM4M8WtO2MAUGya9M9PipMWmE-5ALjVlesumb33ngUH1c_uwyhdgLiocJFCpB5Hx5LnPMAmBBivwlgCVh74" width="800px;" height="719px;"> <span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">The point I’m trying to make is that no matter how great your idea is you cannot hire anyone with just an idea. <span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; "> </div><div style="background-color: transparent; font-family: Times; font-size: medium; "><span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">If you are just starting out then earning trust should be your goal. Your first project are almost certainly not going to make money unless you can rely on other developers who have the experience to be able to finish a project successfully, and, if you are just starting out chances are those more experienced developers will not be interested in working with you. <span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; "> </div><div style="background-color: transparent; font-family: Times; font-size: medium; "><span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">Finish games, earn trust, and build a talented and experienced team over time. <span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; "> </div><div style="background-color: transparent; font-family: Times; font-size: medium; ">(Please let post here if you think I’m off track, I guess this advice is as much for people responding to dubiously fortunes projects as for the people suggesting dubiously fortuned projects)</div><div style="background-color: transparent; font-family: Times; font-size: medium; "></div>

Elyaradine · 1:21pm 22 Jun 2012

I don't want to hijack your post, but on a related note I'd just like to point out some specifics regarding working with artists that I've observed from my limited experience. I've heard complaints before about how difficult artists are to work with; I don't think this is true at all. I believe you simply have to work with artists the same way you'd work with any professional.Art is kind of different to dev, although similar to design, writing, etc. in that everyone seems to have an opinion on what good art/aesthetics are. Which is great — after all, this is what makes art and design such powerful forces for affecting mindsets, emotions, and other intangible parts of being human! You cannot, however, expect that having a lot to say about the art that other people make somehow makes you qualified to be an art director. At all. If you want a successful working relationship with your artist(s), you'll want one or more of the following (which are really similar to @BlackShipsFilltheSky‘s ones):<ul><li>a crapload of money (the artist may not agree with you, but they may be willing to sell their artistic integrity; after all, this is what 95% of artists and designers working in advertising do, right? And why we have so many crappy ads all over the place…?) </li><li>art experience (you’ve studied what they do, you speak their language, and you've got a portfolio of past projects that are evidence you know what you're talking about. Artists may not agree with your decision, but your past work is good enough that they'll trust you anyway.) </li><li>an art director who shares your vision, and has loads of art experience. (While you may not have good past projects to show your validity as an artist or art director, if you've got a friend/colleague who does, and who shares your vision, your artists may trust them, and you by extension.) </li></ul><img src="https://dl.dropbox.com/u/9847316/picshare/ArtisticCredibilityOverTime.png">Most people who're artists have been drawing all their lives. Many people who are not artists stopped drawing sometime in their childhood, usually around the latter part of primary school. By the time these people have finished studying, gone to university, and are in the working environment, they've gone a good 10-15 years without drawing, whereas the artists have been drawing virtually non-stop for a good 15-20 years. It just doesn't make sense for you, if you haven't got art experience, to be telling artists what they should be doing, or how they should be doing it, no matter how much “sense” you seem to be making. Just as you, as a developer with several years of study and experience behind you, probably wouldn't (seriously) take programming advice from someone who hasn't programmed in over a decade, and has no educational or professional programming experience, an artist isn't very likely to trust you if you don't have demonstrable art experience.That isn't to say that you can't offer opinions! You can, and you should, especially if it's “your” game they're working on. Definitely don't shut up about art critique. Especially if it's something that directly affects gameplay, design or user experience (all art does, but I mean this compared to art direction itself). At the end of the day, though, the person who calls the shots, has the final say, when it comes to art really should be someone with a fair amount of game art experience (and, big bonus, game design experience too!) if you want to keep your artists happy, productive employees.
(Thanks to @BlackShipsFilltheSky for the image, and for rescuing this post from oblivion.)

Why No One Wants to Join Your Idea

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