I'm new to the sector, and all I know about software and computers is how to use the MS suite of office products and how to switch on my computer. My experience in computer games is limited to solitaire and candy crush, which I stopped some time ago.
But I have recently picked up a responsibility to understand a lot more about this sector in order to do my job as best I can.
After my initial post on the forum about vacancies which was removed, I engaged in some debate about the issue with one of the members/admin (?). I promised to not use the forum to advertise, but that I would contact individual members who indicated they were looking for jobs, most probably by PM. I also promised not to spam.
Now with that background I would like to understand the difference between games and gaming. Btw, I personally think that someone disingenuously removed the 'bl' in what was probably a marketing master stroke at the time. Are there any differences in skills, training and qualifications needed? Other than issues of morality and ideology, would a person who develops games be able to develop products for online gaming? And vice versa, would a person engaged in producing online gaming products be able to produce games? How do the two match up in terms of career prospects and making a living? Etc, etc......
Lastly, I post this to improve my understanding. I'm not trying to be an opportunist. I am using alternative means of sourcing people, including job sites and other forums.
Many thanks.
But I have recently picked up a responsibility to understand a lot more about this sector in order to do my job as best I can.
After my initial post on the forum about vacancies which was removed, I engaged in some debate about the issue with one of the members/admin (?). I promised to not use the forum to advertise, but that I would contact individual members who indicated they were looking for jobs, most probably by PM. I also promised not to spam.
Now with that background I would like to understand the difference between games and gaming. Btw, I personally think that someone disingenuously removed the 'bl' in what was probably a marketing master stroke at the time. Are there any differences in skills, training and qualifications needed? Other than issues of morality and ideology, would a person who develops games be able to develop products for online gaming? And vice versa, would a person engaged in producing online gaming products be able to produce games? How do the two match up in terms of career prospects and making a living? Etc, etc......
Lastly, I post this to improve my understanding. I'm not trying to be an opportunist. I am using alternative means of sourcing people, including job sites and other forums.
Many thanks.
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
When you say "online gaming", what sort of gaming are you talking about? You say that you think either "games" or "gaming" is pretty close to the same thing as "gambling".
I'm honestly not sure what you're referring to.
I presume that some gambling products market themselves as online gaming. Is this like poker? Or is it more obviously gambling like online slot machines?
Generally, on these forums, in this community, which I guess you could call part of the independent game development scene, when we talk about gaming or games we are talking games that people play purely for enjoyment, and these games are either bought upfront, or are free, but earn their money by getting players to pay money for virtual goods (like Candy Crush does).
When we say gambling we usually refer to games where players are trying to receive money through luck when playing the game.
There are some successful companies making online gambling games in South Africa. Like Derivco and Forward Slash.
There are also some successful companies making games for entertainment, like Runestorm and The Brotherhood.
And there are some successful companies that making games for hire, where clients pay for their game development skills and time, like everyone here: http://makegamessa.com/discussion/3054/list-of-companies-that-are-interested-in-doing-outsourced-projects
There are also a few simulation companies that produce training simulations (and other kinds of simulations) for clients who need to train their staff (or simulate other things).
All these share a lot of the same skills. They all need programming, they all need art, they all need sound design and they all need management and production.
They do involve different kinds of design. Experience in designing gambling games isn't going to help you design games for entertainment, and visa versa. I'm not sure what skills are needed for designing simulations, but not the same as any of the other fields.
Simulation companies and gambling companies have some pretty specific programming requirements in certain aspects of their production. Making games for entertainment and making games for hire share most of their programming requirements (though it will vary based on how that company operates)...
I'm not sure if in one post I can really explain game development... hope I've been somewhat helpful, maybe some more specific questions could be answered better.
As far as I know, gambling games have some extra difficulty in terms of security, keeping how they generate random numbers a secret, and protecting the accounts/identities of gamblers. Simulations sometimes have extra difficulty in dealing with specialised data (that may need to be highly accurate, or derived from a huge dataset). The art teams for both of those generally aren't given very interesting work, having to copy blueprints, clean up scans, and a huge amount of UI work (which, from what I've seen, most artists don't really enjoy, though as a result they often get paid better).
I imagine that making gambling games has some closer ties to web development than it does with game development because of what I perceive to be a greater focus on UI/UX and security. I think there's some crossover between gambling and some sectors of game development in terms of design, but I don't feel comfortable talking about that part knowing that you work in the gambling sector.
If it needs a gambling license, it's not a game. It doesn't matter how often it gets called "gaming" by people trying to hide what it actually is, producing that software still isn't game development. Because it's not game development, it's not valid posting gambling jobs here. In many ways gambling software development in SA is at odds with game development: So many people have been tricked into gambling software development hoping that they'd be making games. They ended up building software that sucks income from vulnerable people in vastly dishonest ways. I don't think that's okay, even if they got paid well for their consciences.
So, to take a stab at answering the questions posted here directly: Yes. This forum caters to game developers with a vast array of skillsets: Programming, art, sound, music, design. People make games without touching a line of code, so seeing this place as a bunch of programmers isn't fair at all. What qualifications are you assuming game developers have that are specific to game development? This question is the wrong way around :) Maybe. There would have to be a lot of learning involved. Other than issues of financial necessity and/or greed, why would anyone do this voluntarily? Maybe. Again, there would probably be a lot of learning involved. Learning that this forum is all about helping with. Who cares and how do you answer that? Do you compare casino owners to Notch? Do you compare the working salaries of people doing a regular job against people doing what they love? If people want jobs making gambling apps (or websites, databases, customer-retention apps or anything that isn't a game), all they have to do is search for "online gaming" positions on P.net anyway, everyone here is smart enough to do that.
Master chef is also a game.
Almost any form of play with a set of rules engaged with a lusory attitude can be classified as a game.
*Programming: Gambling and simulation development are more likely to emphasize software engineering skills over and above pure programming skills. This is because these tend to be products that have to maintained over many years and pass corporate and government quality and certification tests. Also, outside of a few use cases game development doesn't really deal too much with security. Other than that these days game development and gambling value pretty much the same set of skills: realtime graphics programming, network programming, gameplay programming, audio programming.
*Art: Some of the same technical challenges, though less interesting creative challenges (from what my art colleagues tell me). There's less likely going to be the kind of wizardry that is happening in AAA 3D game development, but then these days AAA gamedev isn't the whole industry either, a lot of Indie games make perfectly good use of 2D visuals that don't necessarily push the envelope.
*Design: I'll likely get some pushback here, but design is an important aspect of gambling as well. The kind of design happening is more akin to that in freemium game design than other types of games, trying to make use of different psychological hooks to pure entertainment design. I'm guessing here but I also suspect it's a much more data driven design process than for pure entertainment products-since there's less variation between products there's more room to use data obtained from previous products to design new ones. This is just my experience, but gambliing (and simulation) development offers better financial and quality of living prospects. The pay is higher, and the companies are typically more financially stable since they're not hit driven. This also means the schedules are more manageable so there is less crunch. Advancement prospects would depend very much on the kind of company one works for, as in any industry.
I'm in two minds about this. One, I would require that the poster says that the job is for gambling and not game development. But, on the other hand, I would prefer that this forum stay dedicated to indie game development in SA, rather than confuse the issue with gambling job adverts.
And taking things even further to now saying that MGSA is "only about indie game development", well, I wont even comment on that.
@BlackShipsFilltheSky
Hi @Yang, I don't know what happened with your post that was removed.
On my first posting I posted 35 vacancies to fill for 24 positions and I listed them. (I know there are recruiters who shotgun ads to fill their database, but that's against my principles of fairness to candidates, so I named the job title of each position.) Admin contacted me to say the posting was unacceptable and after some debate I promised not to do it again.
@Elyaradine
I also feel disgust whenever I hear of gambling referred to as "gaming" or "adult gaming". It makes me think that even they know that what they're doing is shady, to have to feel as if they need to disguise it, and drag the rest of us through the mud in the process.
I do not like gambling. I go to Sun Coast Casino in Durban for free wkend parking and a safe start for my rides and for hosting the start and finish of triathlons. I was given free chips on a bus trip to Sun City years ago, doubled the value of the chips which bought a nice lunch for wife and me. As I said, the bl was taken out of gambling to soften the edge of the word. But more on this further down.
@dislekcia
So many people have been tricked into gambling software development hoping that they'd be making games. They ended up building software that sucks income from vulnerable people in vastly dishonest ways. I don't think that's okay, even if they got paid well for their consciences.
mattbenic answered this better than I could. People have to make personal choices to build their lives- they owe it to themselves, their spouses and their children. If people really applied their minds, there would be far more dilemmas about their professions. Master brewers working to increase beer consumption. Marketers budgeting mega amounts to promote the sale of spirits. Lab workers cooking chemicals to make painkillers and psychiatric drugs- and doctors over-prescribing same. Processing engineers who make sugar that damages telomeres and thereby shortens the DNA strands and aging and killing people sooner than their otherwise SB date. Vets who specialise in repairing race horses for their next run for punters to bet on. Graphic artists and software specialists painting backgrounds for computer gambling.... Etc, etc. How do all the professionals here deal with their consciences? Big debate... but exceptionally unfair to put it down to "greed".
@mattbenic
A comment on your struggle on your working for a gambling developer- at least you aren't aging people faster by making sugar, or marketing the flavoured, fizzy water that causes obesity. Or worse, contributing to addiction by manufacturing stopayne. You will not hear the drugmakers and bottlers apologising. And thanks for the time taken to clarify- very useful.
@dislekcia
What qualifications are you assuming game developers have that are specific to game development? This question is the wrong way around :)
I was fairly confident that people in game development and in developing gambling products needed the same types of qualifications, incl BSc Computer Science, Maths, ND Info Tech, certificates in data metrics, etc. This is why I thought that the site would have members interested in looking at the opportunities.
@dislekcia
Who cares and how do you answer that? Do you compare casino owners to Notch? Do you compare the working salaries of people doing a regular job against people doing what they love? If people want jobs making gambling apps (or websites, databases, customer-retention apps or anything that isn't a game), all they have to do is search for "online gaming" positions on P.net anyway, everyone here is smart enough to do that.
Very few people can afford to make a living by relying on doing only what they love- unfortunately.
@Eric
Very useful and objective- thanks.
Having worked for nearly 5 years at the most successful gambling studio in the world as a game developer, 3 years at a smaller game dev studio in Joburg making gambling related products and being a hobbiest game developer for around 19 years, about to release my first commercial game, I am in a pretty good position to give you answers to your questions, I think. ;)
First off - gambling games are games. Games of chance and skill where people wager on the outcome are some of the oldest forms of games in the world. People may find gambling immoral and exploitative, and that's fine. I find many F2P models immoral and exploitative (and just plain annoying), but I still include those under the gaming umbrella.
Hell, I think the Humble Bundle uses an exploitative psychological trick to drive up bundle sales. That rising average thing is a devilishly devious form of manipulation.
Onto your actual questions: Payment model, mostly.
You could turn Monopoly into a gambling game by requiring players to all contribute a sum of money at the beginning which is used as the "bank", the winner taking home the whole pot at the end. And you can turn poker into a strategy game of skill, chance and human psychology by simply playing for matchsticks instead of cash.
The two industries that have built up around each scene are different too (although there is more overlap in Asian markets). Not really, no. Yes. The skills overlap to a high degree, from graphics programming to production to sound design to UX design to illustration and 3D modelling.
Even (and I'll get flak for this, I am sure) game design skills. The indie scene has a high focus on innovative design, which is cool, but if you go work as a game designer in the AAA space there is less a focus on that and more a focus on taking existing, well-established game mechanics and designing new twists and ways to present them in engaging ways to players.
If you work at Zynga as a game designer, you're making "ville" variants. Before anyone says "Zynga doesn't employ real designers", Brian Reynolds worked for Zynga. It's real design work, even if it doesn't have the same focus on really pushing the design space in innovative directions as the indie space does.
There are game designers on the fifa games, year after year, even if the basic rules of soccer as a game are pretty set.
In terms of my personal experience, working as a game developer for a large, professional gambling company made me a much better developer and designer. Working in a large professional production environment is a very different experience to working as a hobbiest on a passion project.
Making extremely polished gaming experiences that people pay money for, under constraints and with tight deadlines, working with a team of highly-skilled specialists, coordinating all the moving parts, building from good spec docs, learning what a good spec doc actually is...
I had raw talent and enthusiasm, working in that environment gave me professional production skills and battle testing.
You can get some of that from working at any big software developer, but the production pipeline for banking software isn't as directly applicable as building games of any form will be. Strong overlap. I was hired into gambling directly because of my skillset and experience with game development (it's a key thing they look for), and I know a number of people (myself included), who have moved on from gambling dev to work professionally in game development, some in AAA.
Outside of certain circles, you won't find too much moralizing about it. The two industries recognize that they're cousins, and that the skillsets are transferable, which is what they mostly care about when hiring employees. People regularly make the jump from one to the other.
On the moralising side of it, I understand that there is at least one major religious grouping that will not get involved in gambling development, although one candidate I received, by name, is distinctively part of that religious group and assured he had no qualms in a telecon.
There are a lot of industries to have moral qualms about. Advertising is where most people who want to be artists (graphic design) and writers (copy writing) end up, and that industry is also deeply problematic, IMO. Banking, insurance, retail...take your pick.
I doubt that argument will convince some, but you make your peace with your own conscience, hey. ;)
But I haven't worked in gambling (or simulation for that matter). I know the lead artist at our studio came from a simulation company, but when he started here, despite being very technically competent, he basically had to start from scratch (in terms of his creative skills particularly). I'd expect the same is true of artists arriving from gambling into indie game development.
I guess @garethf predicted correctly that he'd get a bit of flak for suggesting the design aspects overlap to a high degree (and I think some of the creative skills needed in other disciplines do not overlap as closely as he suggested). Though to be fair I can't comment on the design (or creative work) done in the AAA space, or the free-to-play mobile space (so I don't mean to disagree about that).
Regarding posting recruitment to gambling jobs at Make Games SA (which is what this seems to be about really):
I don't really see an incentive for Make Games SA to allow gambling companies to recruit here. Developers who get gambling jobs seem to effectively leave the game development industry as a result of the secrecy and the contracts they have to sign at these companies. Of course there have been a couple of them who have come back to participate in game development, but for the most part gambling development in this country seems to be closer to a brain drain for game development than a resource.
Personally I don't care about people finding employment in fields other than game development (even if these jobs might be good for these people personally), what I care about is awesome games being made. Losing developers to gambling companies seems to be at odds with making awesome games.
If that's not the case, and developers at Derivco and Forward Slash etc have been making rad games that I'm not aware of, or there are a lot of ex-gambling developers now making rad games in South Africa, then I'm super happy to be corrected!
On the topic of is making gambling "things" also game dev: I think this a weird one. If we have a look in a very different direction and super simple combinatorial games like Nim. In the strict sense of the word those are games (and in the context that they are typically use it is not wrong), but if someone working on research/development into Nim and other combinatorial games said they were doing game dev I would have a very different idea of that they do. I think the skills overlap certainly exists between all of these different fields, but it's kinda irrelevant.
Honestly I'm not sure if making gambling games should be called game dev, but I think that a core issue is: this should be clearly communicated.
I think whether we, as a community, actually want this sort of thing on the forums is an important secondary issue. I totally understand that I'm speaking from a position of privilege when I say I wouldn't want to work making gambling games, but I would be totally fine with saying it's not something we as a community want here. If I direct people to come here it's never to find a job making gambling games. In fact, if frequent posts for such jobs became a thing I feel I'd have to explicitly warn them against that, which kinda indicates this isn't something that really sits well with the community in general.
Look. As far as I am concerned, the more exposure that "real game development" gets to the people working on "evil fake games", by involving those vile individuals to a place like this can only be beneficial to game development South Africa. I am willing to bet that a fair number of people slaving away in the Mines of Derivco and the like are note yet aware of the recent growth of "real" game development in the country. Inviting them into the fold instead of shunning their current career choices could perhaps lead to some of them evaluating what kinds of games that they *could* actually be building instead.
Or are you referring to a more general shunning of gambling career paths? (I'm definitely not advocating shaming developers who work on gambling games if that's what you are referring to)
(Also, 5 or so developers exiting out of gambling companies to make games is a pretty low percentage. I'm not sure that proves the point you think it does. Granted I did not know that Lighthouse Studios was ex-Derivco)
I don't think that's any kind of slippery slope that might lead to serious games being shunned (as you suggested in a previous post). If anything reducing the visibility of gambling companies is likely to make Make Games SA more welcoming to serious games and games for change.
I think we (and others, on both sides) may just have to agree to disagree on what part gambling games/jobs/industry has to offer the games industry in South Africa.
The reason you don't see a lot of people exiting gambling to make games in this country is because you don't see a lot of people making games in SA full stop.
We just don't have enough of an industry built up to attract skilled people out of banking, gambling, advertising etc in significant numbers, at least not yet. Most people are not indie entrepreneurs, they're looking for open positions in established companies with competitive salaries and good benefits.
@BlackShipsFillthe Sky.
Regarding posting recruitment to gambling jobs at Make Games SA (which is what this seems to be about really):
I'd just like to comment on this one. My interest in the forum has evolved from using it as a resource for specialists in the field of games and gambling development through advertising, to PM'g individuals who post their availability on the market (and I will not spam), to the higher order quest for a better understanding of this highly specialised, technical sector. Along the way I sense that some interesting and constructive debate has occurred and I have learnt.
To comment on the issue of Derivco's alleged poor contribution to developing games, I am inclined to think that its got something to do with their low turnover- nobody is moving out. When I heard that they had so many vacancies I automatically attributed it to a high staff turnover- "no" I was told, it was because of the company's expansion. But it is inevitable that over the years there is going to be spillover into the market. Like @garethf and @sniperED007 and the Lighthouse people. The skills will not be retained as if in some black hole, never to emerge- surely.
@francoisvn
...I totally understand that I'm speaking from a position of privilege when I say I wouldn't want to work making gambling games, but I would be totally fine with saying it's not something we as a community want here...
Just my opinion as a newbie and software illiterate- seems a pity to exclude one part of the sector from the forum for making gambling games. I hope this is not more than just some friendly trash talk, like MTB riders versus roadies.
I'm happy to agree to disagree with you about the role of gambling on Make Games SA though :) (Seems like that's the way this is going). I'm not trying to dismantle the gambling industry if that's the way this is coming across, but I don't think the gambling industry needs a recruitment base at Make Games SA (I think it'll thrive without this forum).
So to add to the discussion: there seems to be a general interest for recruitment in other "non-typical game dev" and indirectly related (to whatever degree) employment positions targeted at MGSA. How about we create a single thread to contain all those requests (as posts)? We can put a well-considered bit of wording on the first post to explain to prospective hires that, while these jobs are probably not what they are looking for if they think about game dev, they are viable employment opportunities that they may want to consider.
Can we call ourselves a community of game developers if we define what games are? Can we identify with the noun if we are unwilling to adhere to its meaning?
Game is defined in two ways: So Gambling games meet both of these, although one would argue that gambling can become an addiction which might not strictly be amusement but whatever, lets roll with this.
Now lets say to be more welcoming we redefine ourselves as: Make Video Games SA. Still gambling games.
Maybe we can try Make Indie Video Games SA. What about the cats that make boardgames? Isn't this the most accessible form of game design and development. It requires very little by way of technology and coding skill. Just the ability to design a fun game mechanic. For the niche market of video gamblers, slot machines and random chance are a fun game mechanic, both physical and on a compootar mashien.
I'm not sure I see what you may be achieving by excluding people who make gambling games from being part of this community. Maybe you feel that the companies are for-profit entities and are therefore exploiting us as a gathering point of competent minds and talent.
I respect that view, but maybe then we can try and find a way to identify them as an industry, maybe group industries as a whole so I can know at a glance that the thread I'm entering is something I'm interested in.
Perhaps we can find middle ground before we openly deny access.
But in terms of job postings, I think having those as an option's probably a good thing. The fact is that not everyone who graduates from a game-related course is going to be able to find game work. And a lot of that's going to be down to the fact that they're inexperienced. I'd rather people be going to work in simulations and gambling and actually getting work, and gaining some amount of relevant experience, than being unemployed (along with the huge stress/disillusionment that comes with that). I know that staying in the game industry was actually a lot easier for me personally, knowing that if I got sick of it (whether because I hated a project, or a producer, or salary; or the studio closed, or whatever), I wouldn't have to worry about having a job because of places like the simulation companies being around. There's some kind of peace in having a backup plan that allows you to be able to stand bigger risks.
As long as it's clear what's being advertised, and it's not spammy, I don't really have a problem with gambling jobs being advertised. I'd be much happier with regular forum members who're making their own games or who've been contributing to the community with crit, or perf, or other help, posting these jobs too. Like, I'd be way happier with @garethf or @mattbenic posting a job than with some random person posting a job offer on their first post. But I get that that's not always going to be the case.
At the same time, I'm... really not fond of the idea of, say, gambling/sim/advertising studios having voting power when it comes to MGSA community decisions.
Jobs may not be posted by commission-earning agents and third party recruitment agencies. - this helps with a lot of the misunderstandings around gambling/game development as well as makes sure that game jobs posted here are direct comms between the companies hiring and people interested in game development. Recruitment agencies are all well and good, but not when they're recruiting for non-game development jobs in a game development space and not when the job would be communicated better by the company offering it.
Note that people are welcome to use recruitment agencies if they wish (as both employers and employees - this makes no judgement against people who have done that personally) just that we acknowledge that third-party posts here are going to be akin to games of broken telephone.
How people make decisions about jobs is their own thing, there are clearly differing trains of thought about those decisions in the community. This community exists to support and grow the game development industry in South Africa, I don't see how advertising non-game development jobs achieves that (barring the odd circumstance where someone needs financial support to build a game in their spare time, which is better handled by direct financial advice, not impersonal mass job posts).
Many people have suggested some rather extreme slippery slopes in this thread. So far the only one that I believe holds any truth is that welcoming non-game job posts from recruiters will quickly turn this forum into a place covered in non-game job posts from recruiters.
Under your definition, would jobs for sports team coaches be acceptable here? What about ads for professional poker sites? There's clearly some nuance to the concept of "supporting and growing the game development industry in South Africa", perhaps it's not fair on recruiters (who don't swim in these distinctions, in fact they're actively incentivised to ignore them) to be expected to understand those nuances.
I used to work for a company, in Cape Town, many years ago which modded FPS games with actual money mods. For timelines: I personally worked on Battlefield 2 (which was new at that point).
Players would have an online wallet, and in-game a hud of funds available. Shooting and/or killing an opponent would add money to your wallet, being shot or killed would deduct from your wallet. We had a complex system of handicap play as well allowing novices to compete against more experienced and better players at a more-or-less equal footing if they chose to play within handicap arenas. We supported several games including counter strike, battlefield 2 and call of duty 2.
This company was classified, legally, as online gambling :)
Games can have gambling elements & gambling can have game elements - it's near impossible to draw an exact line between the two.
I'm 100% onboard though with @dislekcia's comment re agencies. This is a community forum.
/2c
Why should the place where these game-related course grads should be going to look for game jobs be the place telling them to go get jobs in banking or advertising or gambling? Do you honestly think that we wouldn't get swamped with job posts like that if we allowed them?
I understand your point about experience and people being able to get game-relevant experience in other industries. That's fair enough, but if we're really going to suggest that MGSA be actively funneling people out of the game development industry so that they can come back to it later, we need better research. The "5% of full-time local game programmers started in gambling" stat isn't really useful there - we'd need to know how many people go through gambling programming jobs and then end up NOT in the games industry. Are there jobs with better conversion-back-to-games ratios?
Also, your core premise here is that those courses offer skills that are actually hireable in other industries as well AND develop those to the point that someone would be a desirable hire. I mean, is it MGSA's fault if someone gets a qualification and can't find a job with it? Does the MGSA owe people jobs, or is it signal boosting jobs available in the local games space?
Like, I've never managed a forum where there were job postings and found it flooded with non-relevant job offers. I have no idea what a game development forum that's flooded with non-game dev job postings looks like, and I have no idea how high the probability is of that happening. I sort of think that that's a problem I'd rather solve if it becomes a problem, but I can understand the headache that could be, and I understand that I could be woefully underestimating the flood, and I can understand how that could make it look as if we're pushing people in that direction if the number of those postings utterly dwarfs the number of postings for actual game work. I think this might be the crux of our differing viewpoints?
As for the rest of your post, I'd rather PM you, because it's a topic that's been quite heated in the past, and I'm finding that I'm spending far too much time editing what I want to say so that it doesn't come out the wrong way (to lurkers/passive readers).
The denial thing was the general vibe I was addressing. I'm 100% with you in that organisations or people looking to exploit the community should not be allowed to advertise, but I'm talking about ROAR enforcement for specific sub-sections of the industry.
However, if some industrious person wanted to legitimise Calvin Ball as a project I don't see why they don't belong here, it is at the end of the day a game.
First, on the issue of delineating the purpose of MGSA and its scope of interest.
dislekcia said
Why should the place where these game-related course grads should be going to look for game jobs be the place telling them to go get jobs in banking or advertising or gambling? Do you honestly think that we wouldn't get swamped with job posts like that if we allowed them?
I can understand that members should go elsewhere for jobs related to banking, advertising, and all the other industries not involved in making games. The message I have distilled so far (and I will grant it that I may be wrong) is that the jobs that qualify are only for games development. It seems a strong territorial defence of this particular space. My difficulty is that in the face of the comments so far (besides recruiting I'm a professional arbitrator, so I go by the evidence- trying to be as objective as possible), how do you differentiate between entertainment games and gambling games when there seems to be so much overlap (look at @clive's comments), for the purposes of recruitment. Do you propose to ban all job ads for gambling development directly by the company itself, as well? Or would it be ok if the company posted an ad for a "Mobile Game Developer - Android Download" - purpose - to develop gambling for android apps, but not OK for the company to post an ad for an IT Infrastructure Engineer, because its not directly related to developing gambling products, remembering @clives' words "Games can have gambling elements & gambling can have game elements - it's near impossible to draw an exact line between the two."? After all, when reference is made to "gambling" here, we aren't talking about horse racing.
Poker is obviously a game (and there are some other popular gambling games like it I presume).
However it's pretty easy to answer your question. The difference between gambling games and entertainment games is that gambling games are designed to pay out money under certain conditions, and are played in order to gamble money, whereas entertainment games are designed to deliver an entertaining experience, and are played in order to enjoy oneself.
If a problem comes up, like @Clive pointed out, where the lines are blurry, we could certainly deal with it then. I feel that the example that @Clive mentioned, of FPS games played for money, would definitely fit into both camps.
But I take it we aren't talking about a blurry line in your case?
@Yang I think some of your confusion is as a result that there is disagreement here about the how closely gambling and gaming are related, and how much support Make Games SA should provide to recruiters from the South African gambling industry.
I don't personally find them particularly entertaining (except maybe some of the card games, and then only for a trivial amount of money), but then, I don't really like racing or sports games, either.
But I wouldn't presume to claim that the people who play those games aren't playing them for entertainment, just because they don't entertain me, personally.
If a game is about playing for the random chance of winning money, it's gambling. It's the whole "random chance to win money" part that ties together all gambling. I'm not sure what the purpose of ignoring that (legal) definition is, but it's certainly not hard to draw a distinction.
I think that is a very fragile distinction...
Of course, the distinction is whether you gamble money or not, hence "gambling". But both types of game are created to entertain players.
In the Venn diagram, the circles for "played for enjoyment" and "designed to entertain" overlap both gambling and non-gambling games, but "involves betting money" overlaps only gambling games.
Is there something else in the Durban area that's causing these things? Do less people in Durban want to make games, or do the people who start out wanting to make games in Durban end up at Derivco instead?
P.S. Lol typo.
Whether a gambling activity is improved by the removal of the real money interaction is an interesting design discussion to have. Although I will note that we don't have many job postings here for studios dedicated to building strip poker apps ;) Ah, so there IS a distinction. Cool. Perhaps it's a better idea to focus on that then. Does that difference have any impact on the development or design process?
First being told by people who don't have experience in both industries that I'm wrong in saying there is a large overlap in skills, now being told "how it is" in Durban by someone who doesn't live here.
Mounting frustration is making it exceptionally hard to remain polite.
Now should it be allowed on this forum to advertise positions in the "virtual gambling" industry is another matter, seems like you think that is not acceptable and you base this on the fact that gambling games need a license.
I kind of get a vibe that the issue is not really that you need a license for a gambling game, but rather that gambling is seen as a dirty sector and that it will pull the limited game-devs we have in this country away from making "proper games"?