A Dark Room - Awesome minimalist survival game

Nitrogen

Go play it now:

http://adarkroom.doublespeakgames.com/

I recently found out about A Dark Room. It's really nicely done and surprisingly addictive, which is amazing considering it's nothing more than a bunch of numbers and progress bars. It does such a good job of conveying just the information you need and nothing more. I'm usually not a fan of minimal games but this one is so excellently done, I think it deserves a try.

There's a Lights Off mode at the bottom to change the colour scheme to dark, and putting on some http://www.rainymood.com/ in the background helps the atmosphere quite a bit.

The fire is roaring.

Tuism

This kept me busy for the better half of the flight to GDC :) Very surprisingly engrossing, I think it would fit well into the writing comp EXCEPT for the fact it takes WAY more than 20 min to play through :)

(No I haven't finished it yet, but it does surprise in the same way as Candyland, which is also great!)

Asbestos

I've just made my first click.
Right off the bat it strikes me as a Cookie Clicker style game.
We'll see how it progresses.

EvanGreenwood

Rainy mood really makes this pretty great.

I wish there was a little more story in it. I guess that's after playing a bit of Sunless Sea I want that much detail in story in every text based game. I don't like that there's a lot of repetitiveness after the first 5 minutes, and the narrative content becomes sparser (I was really quite excited when I met the builder, but then she became a UI element instead of a story).

Tuism

But wait, there's more!

The rabbit hole goes WAY deep, but yes it becomes super repetitive, I'm not going to defend that about it, but it was a filler game that grew into something I really wanted to find out more about eventually.

I didn't get too far, though. Though there's no telling how far it does go.

Candyland yo, that was a good one too. Same feeling of discovery. I guess in that respect it can be compared to Frog Fractions. Which was way, way, better in presentation, of course.

EvanGreenwood

Finished it. Probably doesn't go much further than where you got to @Tuism

Nitrogen

I loved the fact that you start with just one button and by the end of it you're basically playing a roguelike.

vintar

I`d just like to thank @Nitrogen for ruining my life introducing this game to me :D

Almost bit me as hard as my first experience here : codingame.com/home

Nitrogen

vintar said:

I`d just like to thank @Nitrogen for ruining my life introducing this game to me :D

Haha I know right? If we could bottle that addictive essence, who knows what we could achieve?

EvanGreenwood

Nitrogen said:

Haha I know right? If we could bottle that addictive essence, who knows what we could achieve?

DO IT! Don't just talk about it! Try make a simple game with compulsion as strong as this right now! (Maybe look at Cookie Clicker and a few others and try figure out what the thing is that these games share and replicate that).

LC_Lupus

@BlackShipsFilltheSky said:

DO IT! Don't just talk about it! Try make a simple game with compulsion as strong as this right now! (Maybe look at Cookie Clicker and a few others and try figure out what the thing is that these games share and replicate that).

Damn straight! The biggest problem holding back success is that people simply won't go for it. Sure, you may not succeed, but you could never possibly succeed if you just dream and never do anything about it. Although I don't know if I agree with replicating it (even if you're just talking about that "something" that makes such addictive games tick)... I can see what you mean, but "replicate" feels awfully similar to "clone." I think that "draw inspiration from" may be a better option.

Art is based on derivation after all (although that it a bit of a generalization)... just so long as it's not all too derivative.

EvanGreenwood

LC_Lupus said:

I can see what you mean, but "replicate" feels awfully similar to "clone." I think that "draw inspiration from" may be a better option.

Are you arguing that replicating a type of system that many successful games share is too similar to cloning? If so, how do you feel about most first person shooters using recharging health? Should they each have unique systems for health that draw inspiration from Halo and Gears Of War?

Obviously I'm being facetious. But innovation often comes from trying to replicate an aspect of an existing product (like the compulsion loops of A Dark Room which @Nitrogen found so addicting) in a product that is otherwise different, particularly when those differences inspire new solutions to maintain the effect of the replicated aspect.

And for the purposes of learning, which is what I was suggesting @Nitrogen do, even full blown cloning wouldn't necessarily be a bad result, if it helped him understand what that "addictive essence" he was talking about was, and would allow him to produce that quality in future, more original, projects.

I guess what I'm trying to get across is that, as a game designer, "replicate" isn't a dirty word for me, particularly when regarding education. Games are complicated things and even the most original games tend to share a lot mechanical features with other games.

"Cloning" is a dirty word. But that implies wholescale theft of another game's design without changing anything. Which isn't what I suggested.

LC_Lupus

@BlackShipsFilltheSky said:

Are you arguing that replicating a type of system that many successful games share is too similar to cloning? If so, how do you feel about most first person shooters using recharging health? Should they each have unique systems for health that draw inspiration from Halo but never replicate it?

Yeah, you've got me there. I'll be honest and say that I didn't think of that. I did try to, sort of, state that art is inherently derivative right at the end there, although that was kind of a contradiction to what I'd said only a paragraph prior. Creators borrow from one another constantly, and I think my main problem is just the word "replicate," which feels the same as "clone" to me personally. Hence the reason I stated that I preferred the use of "draw inspiration from" rather than straight up replication; which is a synonym for copy.

Obviously I'm being facetious. But innovation often comes from trying to replicate an aspect of an existing product (like the compulsion loops of A Dark Room which @Nitrogen found so addicting) while not replicating the product in its entirety.

This is pretty much in every artform there is: Tolkien created the standard fantasy setting (pretty much), Hitchcock did countless things for film that had never been thought of before, Tezuka created the big manga eyes, ee cummings revolutionized freeform poetry and id created the first person shooter (more or less). So yes, innovation involves taking things that work and reusing them. With literary language it's called defamiliarization and I guess it's called other things in other sectors I know a lot less about... you know, like games development.

And for the purposes of learning, which is what I was suggesting @Nitrogen do, cloning wouldn't necessarily be a bad result in any case, if it helped him understand what that "addictive essence" he was talking about was, and would allow him to produce that quality in future, more original, projects.

For the purpose of learning I agree with what you said. But I do feel that it may be a dangerous road to tread if one stated that someone should replicate anything, even if it isn't for commercial reasons. I feel that straight up copying a game to understand it (and how to create something similar) is absolutely fine... if never released; commercial or non-commercial. I feel like copying a game, or any other piece of art for that matter, is fine so long as there's never a chance of passing it off as your own.

I guess what I'm trying to get across is that, as a game designer, "replicate" isn't a dirty word for me. Games are complicated things and even the most original games tend to share a lot mechanical features with other games.

"Cloning" is a dirty word. But that implies wholescale theft of another game's design without changing anything. Which isn't what I suggested. And even then, it's only a problem if you intend profiting off of it or otherwise harming the original's creator.

To me they're synonyms, as I stated previously, but once again this boils down to semantics. Words can give off negative connotations without ever meaning to be taken in that way. So I do agree with what you say there, but I just don't like the use of those words. Clone, replicate, copy, steal, plagiarize, et cetera; they're all the same to me even if you never meant to use them in those ways.

EvanGreenwood

@LC_Lupus Regarding what I was actually suggesting to @Nitrogen in the first place. I think in this case the addictive quality that A Dark Room achieves comes from comes from a few sources...

1) The availability of several options at any time to spend currency on that further improve the player's ability to earn more currency. (This lets the player keep setting new immediate goals and new long term goals for themselves, and makes it hard for the player to break out of the overlapping loops).
2) The steady arrival of new surprising ways to spend currency to benefit the player. (This keeps the player curious, as the player expects new interesting abilities in the future. Again this keeps the player playing).
3) The cost of the upgrades, as well as the ability for the player to earn, escalates throughout the game. At first 20 currency is a lot, eventually 20000 currency is a lot. (This keeps the player in a state of feeling powerful. The escalation happens quickly enough that the player never normalizes).

There is a small amount of curiosity in A Dark Room that it's narrative generates. Though Cookie Clicker doesn't share this.

The point I'm making is that these are fairly abstract notions, with a fairly abstract goal (make the player feel addicted), the act of replicating this effect is comparable to replicating a sense of forboding in a film. Is it a dirty thing to say "I want to replicate the suspense of Hitchcock's The Birds in my film"?

Also, there are so many of these Cookie Clicker games now that they have a Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incremental_game

(A few years back they were quite a new thing)

In any case, I've meddled a little with incremental games, but not successfully. I'd like to give it a try again at some point.

Boysano

Nitrogen said:

vintar said:

I`d just like to thank @Nitrogen for ruining my life introducing this game to me :D

Haha I know right? If we could bottle that addictive essence, who knows what we could achieve?

Interesting game this, like a good experiment to try and find the essence..
After playing it for 5 minutes for me it seems this is the mystery of wanting to know what comes next, that hooks me.

I find cookie clicker mechanics works well in games, and too many developers bad mouth it due to many implementations of it done poorly. But it is a real fun way to start experimenting with game development since the mechanic is straight forward and it is up to you as developer to find that "yes just one more click" feeling...

It is a mechanics which you can easily build an engine on, and make many different iterations and stories with, perfect for experiments. Also a nice mechanic just to use as a mini game in a larger or different game.

Elyaradine

There were a couple of other incremental games that I've played:
http://www.nekogames.jp/g.html?gid=PRM
http://www.clickerheroes.com

I think I've spent about 20 hours on them in total, at which point I got angry at myself for continuing to want to play even though I knew I wasn't learning anything, wasn't really particularly enjoying myself, wasn't genuinely having fun, but still wanting to go back and click more. I've since tried to be much more aware of Skinner-box-like compulsion, and the moment I feel I'm playing more because of that than because of "real" enjoyment, I try to break away completely. I've found it to be much more useful as a player (who values his time) than as a game designer (who hopes to make games that measure success by "players touched" rather than "hours spent playing").

Giving this a go though, because I actually find the minimalism quite appealing. And also because @BlackShipsFilltheSky says he "finished" it, which means that it actually ends. (Many other clicker-styled games basically go on indefinitely.)

Boysano

Using it as a mechanic and bringing it to the space of short stories (value) which ends or has seasons (chapters) may be a novel new implementation on this. Since these days most people want lots of value, in short time bursts, but still feel accomplished. It may just be an age thing, but I totally get your concerns for the mechanic @Elyaradine .

vintar

Just finished the game, very cool indeed!

Nitrogen

BlackShipsFilltheSky said:

1) The availability of several options at any time to spend currency on that further improve the player's ability to earn more currency. (This lets the player keep setting new immediate goals and new long term goals for themselves, and makes it hard for the player to break out of the overlapping loops).
2) The steady arrival of new surprising ways to spend currency to benefit the player. (This keeps the player curious, as the player expects new interesting abilities in the future. Again this keeps the player playing).
3) The cost of the upgrades, as well as the ability for the player to earn, escalates throughout the game. At first 20 currency is a lot, eventually 20000 currency is a lot. (This keeps the player in a state of feeling powerful. The escalation happens quickly enough that the player never normalizes).

This is pretty good summary of the essence of this game (and probably most other incremental games).

1. Feedback loop - Make money, to spend money, to make more money.
2. Incrementally uncovering the world - always new stuff to spend your money on.
3. Given long term goals - I wish I could afford that.

Being a visual person, I immediately think of ways to make it better by adding graphics. I know that minimalism works and that my imagination did most of the work while playing this which is a very good thing, but I just cant help the allure of those sweet sweet pixels.

The other area to explore is like mentioned above, adding more story elements, not just random events but actual plot points that progress the characters.

Definitely going on my "to code up one day" pile.

EvanGreenwood

@Nitrogen It's true that these games can be effective without graphics, and learning about the mechanics of a game is probably best done when focusing just on the mechanics...

But graphics can be a kind of reward. Receiving good looking visual feedback can be yet another thing to look forward to and add some extra compulsion (e.g. windows solitaire). So giving in to your urge to make those sweet sweet pixels even sweeter could potentially be an effective way to differentiate yourself is a sea of minimalist incremental games. (Particularly if you do manage to make the game yet more addictive through graphics).

(I mean to say, if graphics are your passion (or one of your passions), there's probably room for innovating there).

Nitrogen

BlackShipsFilltheSky said:

(I mean to say, if graphics are your passion (or one of your passions), there's probably room for innovating there).

It's good to hear you say that. So often on these forums there's a 'taboo' aspect of focusing on graphics ("make the gameplay first then worry about graphics", "make everything just cubes first", etc.) My primary interest in games is what sort of feelings and atmosphere they can evoke and graphics is a huge part of that.

Tuism

There's only taboo about graphics if you're making a game and you're not making... a game. Countless hours go to waste when I make pretty graphics for something then later discover all of it was pretty much throwaway work when the mechanics needed something else.

That's the problem. If you're making pretty graphics for the sake of it - nothing wrong with that. So many great artists and gamemakers post their work here and I don't think there's anything wrong with it.

So it all depends on what you're focusing on. Acknowledge and stick to that :)

Monster Hunter - there's one of the most incremental games I know :) And Dragon's Dogma - you start off running away from giant Cyclops who'd one hit kill you. Eventually you walk past them and if they look at you wrong you slay them with a few slashes :)

dislekcia

Nitrogen said:

So often on these forums there's a 'taboo' aspect of focusing on graphics ("make the gameplay first then worry about graphics", "make everything just cubes first", etc.)

Oh shit, you're right!

NEVER MAKE GRAPHICS EVER! IF YOU DO, uh... SPIDERS WILL MAGICALLY STOP YOU AND ALL THE THINGS YOU'VE WORKED ON WILL CEASE TO EXIST!

Phew. You nearly made some graphics there. Glad we put an end to that :) That was close!

P.S. Thanks for the help, magical spiders of degaussing.

P.P.S. The magical spiders of degaussing, besides being super cute, would like to remind everyone that there's usually a lot more nuance and context to any advice about focusing too heavily on any aspect of game development, or the order of developing resources. The magical spiders of degaussing thank you for helping them PUT AN END TO GRAPHICS FOREVER!

LC_Lupus

I played this game for several hours and then the browser lost my save but I thought it was fine seeing as I'd backed up... but of course I couldn't figure out how to import it. Anyone know how to explain it in a way that a non-technical person can understand (the actual game's forums were no help)? I was really enjoying it too...

It's probably something really simple. So please bear with the hardly computer literate dude here!

francoisvn

@LC_Lupus: at the bottom right there's a "save" option which opens up a menu with "import" which should give you a place to paste your backed up code

LC_Lupus

@francoisvn: I tried that and it didn't work. It just restarts me from the beginning every time I try. I didn't have the natural program for opening the backup code file so I opened it in Notepad; not sure if that was a mistake because there was a bunch of repeated sections in the code that I think Notepad may have created (not sure though).

I decided to download it on my phone so that it doesn't happen again but I really don't want to restart the entire thing if I can avoid it.

francoisvn

Opening it in Notepad was probably fine, but that code is meant to be a backup of the game at the time you created it, so you would have needed to get a new code when you played further. Sorry if I'm misunderstanding you here and you did in fact do that.

Sorry to hear you lost your progress, but on the bright side you now get to experience the game anew ;)

LC_Lupus

I'll start it again, but only with an irritated grumble over my lost hours (it was like three!). Luckily it wasn't like a Skyrim-length RPG that I'd been playing for a hundred hours... so I'll let it slide A Dark Room's developer... I'll let it slide...

Nitrogen

The saves do have a lot of repeated characters towards the end (thats undiscovered areas on your map)
You probably missed off a few characters or something, but it should just work with a simple copy and paste.

LC_Lupus

Tried a simple copy paste, but that sadly did nothing at all but start me right back from the beginning each time. Maybe one single character is out... maybe I tapped a key by mistake or something. Or it could just be the game's fault. I don't really mind though. Just have to start it all over... *sigh*

Tuism

By the way, The Ensign, the follow up the A Dark Room, is free on the app store :)

EvanGreenwood

Tuism said:

By the way, The Ensign, the follow up the A Dark Room, is free on the app store :)

@Tuism NOOOOO! You're trying to drag us down with you!!!

mike16y

4 all u minimalist survival games lovers, I am creating a minimalist anventure/survival game called "The Legend of Gwyndolar". I should be finished by the end of June...

dislekcia

mike16y said:

4 all u minimalist survival games lovers, I am creating a minimalist anventure/survival game called "The Legend of Gwyndolar". I should be finished by the end of June...

Cool! Good luck :)

I strongly suggest you post it here while you're working on it to get both motivation and feedback to lessen the load.

mike16y

Kewl.... Will do......

Boysano

mike16y said:

4 all u minimalist survival games lovers, I am creating a minimalist anventure/survival game called "The Legend of Gwyndolar". I should be finished by the end of June...

Well you got a good start of insight already on this forum topic, and you know we will be there watching you for each new click! I think there is enough interest here, to warrant you doing a dev log on this forums on your game. :)

Good luck!

mike16y

Kwl ill attatch the url for the next part of the game soon. Thanks guys..... Matbe when I know how to code ill even create a version of it with graphics.....:)

mike16y

Hey guys i got a new pc, so i just need 2 open up my game and reinitialize it, and then im good to go.
Ill start a new discussion called The Legend of Gwyndolar.

NickWiggill

@Nitrogen I really like what you've done here. The minimalism stokes the imagination. A distant memory revealed itself as I was playing: The type of interface and slow exposure of new interface features reminds me of 2 of my favourite Atari ST games: Millenium 2.2 and Deuteros, M2.2's sequel. They may be worth looking into to see how others have added graphics to a debatably similar style of game, albeit 25 years ago. I'm sure they'd be simple to run on an emulator.