Artists for Diversity

edited in General
There's nothing wrong with this devolving into White dudes drawing non-white women

OKAY! so this is sort of a thing, we've spoken about this at make games meets and across the forums, Diversity in games is sorta kinda hella important for the industry, It forces us to learn as well as gives us the opportunity to expand demographics for maximum profit, and just for the minor extra: it's sorta the morally right thing to do.
The beginning of diversity is aesthetics, most of us will work on games that are basic and without hefty amounts of characterization and so one of the most simple ways to put diversity into our games, is through the artwork.
The appeal of this from an artistic perspective? I always like to show off these young ladies:
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WOAH! characters that look different to other characters totally look great together! limiting all characters to a base colour palette will likely result in a blander canvas on which you are playing on. So really you're just limiting yourself on options for character design.

This is not a thread to complain, nor is it an attempt to scream that we are different and totally super inclusive! This is somewhere to exhibit our art that trends away from the stereotypes most of us stick to for safety. Prettimuch all of us are guilty of having a similar default for aesthetic design in game... so please place your work and maybe favourite examples of characters who are breaking the mold, to inspire and explore a world of diversity... and make it acceptable to us.

LOOKING FOR: non-White Characters, non-Adonis body types, disabled characters, elderly characters, children, non-binary gendered characters, characters with no specific femininity or masculinity, anything tailored away from athletic Caucasian brunette men.
(this line is continuously under edit)

Comments

  • GET THE PARTY STARTED! here are some characters that I made conscious decision to deviate them from the white muscular default that fantasy art sorta teaches me to be:

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    OMG. The pyromancer lady with the tartan... Wow. I really like everything about that picture, from her expression, to the lighting meaning there's probably some sort of damage that she's done off on the left behind her, it's great :) (Obligatory note about the foreshortening on her left leg causing havoc with her calf there, but I'm sure you know about that already)

    Missing-arm-half-rockdemon dude is also really interesting. I like how the character is plainly part of a bunch of stories, everything from the semi-infection looking rock stuff, to the missing arm, to the torn pants and half-smile. Usually people would draw an amputee with a sombre look to them and end up focusing on the "damage" part of the amputation, but there are totally reasons why someone might be smiling despite what's happened already. Choosing to focus on that instead is cool :)

    Also, that pixel pyromancer with the flaming head/hands? That's great pixel work.
    Thanked by 1mattbenic
  • So I can't art at all, but this is a really great idea, and I want to add to it in some way. With that in mind, here's a 102 level series of articles on diverse representation (where 101 is "stop exclusively representing straight, cis, able-bodied white dudes"). It mostly focuses on writing and worldbuilding, but the third and fourth parts have some really useful stuff to say about the visual depiction of race. 1, 2, 3, 4.

    While we're at it, here's a great post about cultural appropriation in the visual design of Star Wars. It opens with a Junot Diaz quote about how some of the worst parts of racial oppression have informed some beloved works of 'geek fiction', which of course were created by white dudes, definitely something worth thinking about.
    Thanked by 1Steamhat
  • Your work is great!

    I have some feedback about your portfolio on deviantart - You preface your awesome work with a front page containing a cube, to me it kinda distracts from the awesome work to follow, would it not make sense to go straight into the work and have your name + contact details below each image in small non invasive spot instead (or just at the end) ?

  • This is a great idea, I have a couple of characters that I'll add here when they're a little less WIP (read: when I doubt myself less and hate them less)
    Thanked by 1dammit
  • JUST TO CLARIFY: this was not ANOTHER thread to plug my work,my art, be it great or not, has a thread all to itself, and can stay mostly there, my wish is for this to be a shared art thread, not even by artists on this forum, that explores aesthetic diversity for game worlds and game design

    To add to the spirit of this:
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    RIME by Tequila Works
    Non-white child protagonist? that looks really great. also, how great does dark skin look against such a sparse cyan sky? mmmmm aesthetics
    Your work is great!

    I have some feedback about your portfolio on deviantart - You preface your awesome work with a front page containing a cube, to me it kinda distracts from the awesome work to follow, would it not make sense to go straight into the work and have your name + contact details below each image in small non invasive spot instead (or just at the end) ?
    First of all thank you, but I have a thread for my work, as opposed to this thread which is more focused on not only myself but any artist who has done work exploring diversity. I have been meaning to make an updated, more illustration centric portfolio and maybe one to focus on asset design separately. and there will be a better cover. The portfolio in question is exclusively to show 3D and 2D asset prowess.

    as for @brondin thank you for this, these are really great articles, especially on the subject of cultural appropriation there's a lot of our 'old brass' has to answer for.

    @dislekcia glad you like things, there are indeed anatomical anomalies at work for said character. Half demon person was a logical stretch on previous designs of them, Started as a great big demon flavoured power fantasy and evolved to someone scarred by the massive amounts of power as opposed to only empowered.
  • Cool idea. Here's a few pieces I did for System Crash.

    (Question - do traditionally attractive white women count for this?)

    Duvalle
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    Ashley Wilcox
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    T-Boz
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    JoJo
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    Marty Tang
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    Williams
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  • garethf said:

    (Question - do traditionally attractive white women count for this?)
    the problem with that is that sentence, that there is a specific 'right' version of attractive. for the most part I am trying to ammass non-athletic white people, though ashley wilcox is a nice blend of femininity within a masculine context, whilst Williams is possibly the most white bread you can go :P
    nonetheless thank you for sharing.

  • So I'm curious about the use of stereotypes. Is portraying someone as a classic stereotype of their culture a thing that increases or decreases diversity? Is it othering or inclusive? Is it possible to tell that from an image alone?
  • The blogposts that brondin posted answer that somewhat, I think. The recommendation there is that, if you must portray someone from another culture, you do so after consuming media that that culture has created for themselves, because then you're viewing them through more of the lens through which they view themselves, rather than the lens of western civilization or the cis het white male. And then consulting people who are members of the marginalised group or culture that you've depicted to ask them whether what you've done is hurtful.
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    notably this is more a question of further context as opposed to simple aesthetics, and while I think symbology in aesthetics to represent a culture is a completely valid way to give diversity, there are far too many practices to totally saturate a character with cultural markers which makes the representation somewhat poisoned:
    For visual examples, the ones that spring to mind are:
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    Avatar, the last airbender, did this right, using cultural references in simple aspects of clothing styles of cultures, such as Inuit clothing for the water tribe, and various Chinese clothing styles across the earth kingdom (yes not games but it's simple and wonderful)

    and doing it wrong:
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    Here we have Nix, I really loved Infamous 2 but this character design broke my mind, she was literally alien amongst the locals of the modern New Orleans stand in city, whilst she was characterized equally bizarrely in a mishmash of cultural stereotypes.

    Note: diversity is a much safer realm as opposed to cultural sensitivity, though both are important, a subtle aspect such as skin colour can let someone in, the INSISTENCE THAT YOU ARE REPRESENTING THEIR CULTURE both isolates a demographic, whilst has a high chance to offend in you simply getting it wrong.

    TLDR: I think stereotypes, in the form of learned symbology adds a great deal of subtlety whilst being culturally sensitive, but, as I once pointed out in a concept art lecture, there's a point where oversaturation of detail kills a character design. See The nineties and comics
  • Also really like the fuller-figured pyro female character. Tiny crit on that is that the cigarette looks distinctly like an afterthought.. and that it should already have fallen out of her hand.

    And that first dark-skinned mage? Awesome, make that game :)
  • love, love, love this thread :) Some absolutely stunning art works (love the dude with the blue stripe of hair) and a great conversation!
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    the problem with that is that sentence, that there is a specific 'right' version of attractive. for the most part I am trying to ammass non-athletic white people
    I wasn't implying that there is a 'right' version of attractive. I was asking whether white women who fit the traditional modern western parameters of beautiful count as 'diverse', for the purposes of this thread. If they were depicted in a non-traditional gender role, for example. Like Rosie the Riverter, or Ash Wilcox up there. I suspected not, but just wanted to check.

    Williams is pretty damn whitebread, yes, but I included him because he isn't an Adonis action hero, he's balding etc. But if he doesn't fit then my apologies.
  • Great thread going here! Just wanted to ask before I go diving into google, does anyone have any good links to academic papers or write ups from academics on these issues? I found this of great interest as an artist in this field but most of the information seems to come from bloggers. Those links Brodin posted were very interesting but I don't want my main source of information to come from a game critic.

    It is very refreshing to see how there is a bigger call for diverse characters in games now and the breakaway from the more "traditional" or "historic" hero figure.
  • @kidult - I can share information from the field of psychology... I'm not really sure if you want it specifically from the field of fine arts?
  • @dammit - That would be perfect thanks. Applying it to art is pretty easy imo. Drawing or painting a "diverse" character at the moment, really only entails making them not white, greek proportioned, straight male / female. But that is somewhat shallow and an almost easy way out of the current dilemma of generic "hero" characters. I'd like the characters to be diverse but not just for the sake of diversity. As an example: Say an amputee with one leg being the main "hero" of a platforming game. You could just stick them in there and say "oh hey look diverse character here" or you use their diversity as a game mechanic / story telling device. Which is why I'd like to research more on this.
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    Good stuff, and good to see the conversation going places.

    Haven't had much time to art, but here's something I tried a while ago in an effort to create diversity in my work - Opera Sentai's heroes are masked opera singers, who do not fit the usual hero profile, but aren't cherrypicked because of who they are - they're opera singers, with heavier builds.

    Or would you not count it as representation because they don't have skin colours exposed?

    <img src="http://makegamessa.com/uploads/FileUpload/84/602465c4ce1f6e715afe8a55997d1e.png" />
    Opera_Sentai.png
    1050 x 1050 - 779K
  • @kidult - I would recommend Edward Said's Orientalism and Frantz Fanon's Black Skin, White Masks, they're both really old, and are pretty dense, but they're massively influential texts in the field of critical studies, and both address the representation of race in media. If you're looking for something specifically related to games, check out Mary Flanagan's work. Critical Play is great, and doesn't only examine digital games. Her new book, Values at Play in Digital Games probably covers the topic as well, but I don't have it yet, so I can't confirm.

    As for your point about 'diverse characters not just for the sake of diversity,' I think I see what you're saying about integration of social realities and mechanics/narrative, but I don't really agree that diversity should be solely for the purpose of making a statement. I'm pretty sure this isn't what you're saying, but we shouldn't represent marginalised groups just because we're trying to say something about their marginalisation, they can just be there. People of colour, women, queer folk, all exist in the world, and their lives aren't limited to the lived experience of oppression. It's an important thing for people in privileged positions to begin to understand, but they shouldn't just appear in media as a conduit for the story's moral, they're multifaceted humans just like everyone else, and all those dimensions should be represented.

    This is kind of tangential, but why is it that you'd rather have academic literature than stuff written by media critics outside of the academy?
    Thanked by 1dammit
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    kidult said:
    I'd like the characters to be diverse but not just for the sake of diversity. As an example: Say an amputee with one leg being the main "hero" of a platforming game. You could just stick them in there and say "oh hey look diverse character here" or you use their diversity as a game mechanic / story telling device. Which is why I'd like to research more on this.
    If I understand you correctly, I think you're not quite getting the point of representation in the first place. When you look at games in general, do you question why the main character is white when he is? Do they need a reason to be "white"? I think for most people, they don't need this reason; they simply accept that the main character is white, often don't even notice it, and move on with the story, because in media "white" is a default position, a privileged position, whereas the marginalised groups require some sort of (often-contrived) reason for being.

    So the point of representation is to have black people, women, LGBT, who can simply be, because they exist in the real world. We don't need to be drawing attention to how "weird" or "exotic" it is to have these people in, or have some special reason for them to exist in our fiction, because there doesn't have to be a special reason for them to exist in the real world either; they're just people, and have their own stories that may or may not have anything to do with their being a part of a marginalised group. A person who's missing a hand may still be a champion racecar driver, or a gangster, or a superhero, or whatever, and still go on adventures and stuff that have absolutely nothing to do with their missing hand, and that's okay, because a person who's missing a hand is still a person with their own hopes and dreams, and not everything about them has to be about their hand, just as a black person doesn't have to have a story about how they're not white, and a woman doesn't have to have a story about how they're not male (or that revolves around a man). Thinking that they need some narrative reason not to be white, or not to be straight, etc. is part of a privileged problem, the way I understand it.

    Does that make sense?

    (And I realise I'm not posting art, but I think discussing this stuff is valuable and on-topic, but if we'd rather have all the art in one thread and the discussion in another, I'm cool with that.)


  • So the point of representation is to have black people, women, LGBT, who can simply be, because they exist in the real world. We don't need to be drawing attention to how "weird" or "exotic" it is to have these people in, or have some special reason for them to exist in our fiction, because there doesn't have to be a special reason for them to exist in the real world either; they're just people, and have their own stories that may or may not have anything to do with their being a part of a marginalised group. A person in a who's missing a hand may still be a champion racecar driver, or a gangster, or a superhero, or whatever, and still go on adventures and stuff that have absolutely nothing to do with their missing hand, and that's okay, because a person who's missing a hand is still a person with their own hopes and dreams, and not everything about them has to be about their hand, just as a black person doesn't have to have a story about how they're not white, and a woman doesn't have to have a story about how they're not male (or that revolves around a man). Thinking that they need some narrative reason not to be white, or not to be straight, etc. is part of a privileged problem, the way I understand it.

    Just think about How to Train Your Dragon 2 - the story is definitely not about the fact that the main character is missing part of his leg. It's about dragons. He just happens to have this "disability" which we see in the film doesn't hold him back...it's not actually a thing that's focused on at all. Something I love about the film.

  • Sorry for also derailing things, and the fact that I have a bunch of concept and illustration art, yet nothing to share here, speaks volumes in itself.
    @Elyaradine, @brondin - Yeah looking at what you're saying I realize my outlook is that of the white male. I don't ever question the whiteness of a character as it's easy to relate but a marginalized or minority group will stand out to me and make me question that....oops. I guess that's why I'd like to see a diverse character's diversity explored or examined as it's not the norm for me, so very personal opinion there on my part. But as you pointed out, it would be ideal if characters could just be without any "differences" being emphasized or questioned. This is one of the reasons I want to read and research more on it.
    And tangent: I'm a bit oldschool in my quest for knowledge and I feel that these days anyone can write about anything on the net so I like to know the opinions or thoughts are somewhat better informed. Also if your article contains multiple meme's and fuck yous it's a bit hard for me to take serious. Again a very personal opinion
    Thanked by 2garethf Elyaradine
  • The ultimate focus here is attempting, characters that are breaking the mold and representing under-represented minorities, not to make a collection of diverse characters, because then it's just "post characters and inevitably some of them will be white and some won't"
    Point being to challenge artists to not adhere to a default Idea. We all know how traditionally attractive women look, we all know what white men, who in gaming sadly come in all shapes and sizes and age, whilst women go largely non-varying. So yes, My first line of the starting post was, if this turns into a collection of white dudes drawing black women is totally fine, because we're attempting to stray away from a default.

    So Gender ambiguous fat characters, are great, thank you @tuism
    Whilst also a discussion about appropriate practices is exactly what I'd hope for this thread.
    Thanked by 2garethf Tuism
  • Do you only want original character design work here, or just art generally? I've got some old studies that might be appropriate.
  • DIVERSITY IN GAMING THIS WEEK:
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    Alesha, a character from the recent Magic Set 'Fate Reforged' has been revealed to be A Transgendered woman.
    Sauce:
    notsorryfeminism.com/2015/01/mtg-releases-trans-woman-character.html?m=1
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    So, in joining Conceptart.org CHOW, I figured I'd go with something a bit different, and translated 'Light Eater' as something a bit more noble than demonic... NONETHELESS! also went with non-white seeing as previous human characters on CA.org end up a little on the whitewashed side.
    Thanked by 1garethf
  • I came across this link to comics of might girls in my Facebook newsfeed and thought I'd share it here:

    http://www.amightygirl.com/mighty-girl-picks/graphic-novels

  • Steamhat said:

    Alesha, a character from the recent Magic Set 'Fate Reforged' has been revealed to be A Transgendered woman.
    @Steamhat, just a head's up - 'transgendered' is generally not accepted terminology. Transgender woman or just trans woman is preferred. Here's a great list of terminology on LGBT (and all the other letters) issues. :)

    @dammit, thanks for that link! I've only read a handful of those, so now my comics reading list is sorted for the next year or so :P

    Okay, contribution: A Hugo Award winning article by Kameron Hurley on the erasure of women warriors in historical narratives (including ones relevant to South Africa), and how that erasure affects the representation of women in fiction. It's also filled with really great art, so that's a bonus!
  • brondin said:
    Okay, contribution: A Hugo Award winning article by Kameron Hurley on the erasure of women warriors in historical narratives (including ones relevant to South Africa), and how that erasure affects the representation of women in fiction. It's also filled with really great art, so that's a bonus!
    On this: I'm currently reading an amazing trilogy by Kameron Hurley - sci-fi, set in a far future terraformed/colonised world with a society based on muslim customs and a culturally-flipped gender power structure. Also there's a centuries long war screwing everything up, plots and action all over the place. Great series :) (Explaining the setting that way does it a disservice, it's nowhere near as forced as that, it's just sci-fi with questions that few authors actually think to ask)

  • I read this and thought it was important. On my phone though, so linking images is difficult.
    http://www.buzzfeed.com/alannabennett/what-a-racebent-hermione-granger-really-represen-d2yp
    Thanked by 3dammit garethf damousey
  • brondin said:


    Okay, contribution: A Hugo Award winning article by Kameron Hurley on the erasure of women warriors in historical narratives (including ones relevant to South Africa), and how that erasure affects the representation of women in fiction. It's also filled with really great art, so that's a bonus!
    That was a really fantastic read, thanks for sharing.
  • Tyson Murphy's been doing gorgeous work that doesn't follow tropes I've previously seen. :) Ugh, love his work so much.

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  • Great thread, and some really cool examples here! For the most part when doing art I draw anthropomorphic characters, so out of interest where would that fall on the diversity side of things?

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    @Gibbo: Only if the mouse doesn't fit the "huge boobs" stereotype... (Srsly, what is it with people drawing mice that way?)

    But seriously, I think that's an interesting question. Anthro characters are generally very constructed, both because they don't have "real world" counterparts or cultures to be based on (and yes, I realise there's canon in the fandom, but that's also worth examining - it seems very western-centric), and because a lot of them tend to be specific projections of personalities that people have established in online interactions.

    That amount of construction can point to some interesting things. On one hand it can be extremely laudable because it embodies the most inclusive parts of online interaction - people can be whoever they want to be because whatever they want to be is up for grabs, so they get to choose their identities. It's not surprising that many in the fandom are non-het or non-cis. It's great that anthro art can be a representative medium in that way.

    At the same time, it's possible for other cultures to be either depicted stereotypically or in slanted ways because of the western focus of most in the fandom as it started. The Disney films that many point to as the beginnings of their own anthro art are pretty guilty of this - often specific cultures are lampooned or displayed in a weird kind of racism: All the people from this area are foxes and behave in these ways, for example.

    I reckon that anthro art can be both good and bad, representationally: Good in that it can obfuscate typical otherness-markers that people read unconsciously; Bad in that it can still stereotype entire cultures or groups of people if done lazily and those stereotyped markers are used - imagine if all minotaurs in a comic all spoke in BEV, for instance. I think the important thing is remembering that this, too, is constructed art and being aware of the potential reasons for that construction (as well as trying to minimise unexamined assumptions) is the best way to go. It's really up to the artist if they draw all body types, or if they focus on attractiveness, to pick just one example.
    Thanked by 1damousey
  • True that @dislekcia but nah my mouse character didn't follow that particular trend

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    That's an interesting point you make with the dangers of broad cultural stereotypes for anthro characters. Would Dreamworks be considered guilty of this i.e. with Kung Fu Panda the Chinese characters were all represented by mostly Central Asian animal species (though almost all with American accents/voice actors) or would it have been less thematically fitting for a character with the name Tai Lung to have been represented by a lion or jaguar instead of an Asian snow leopard? I suppose it's also important to look at how each character is handled in terms of outfit, mannerisms, voice/accent and other possible stereotypical indicators (one of the most cringe-worthy examples of racist anthropomorphised characters I can think of would be the Siamese cats in Lady and the Tramp and The Aristocats)
  • Gibbo said:
    True that @dislekcia but nah my mouse character didn't follow that particular trend

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    eerm, I dunno, I think these characters still fall into highly sexualised design. Having a mouse head doesn't make it better.
  • Thanks for the feedback @dammit and you're right, with the human body proportions and form-fitting suits these would still be sexualised designs even if I'm trying to avoid the extreme hourglass shape (giant boobs and hips with tiny waist approach best represented by the Eschergirls trope), and this is something I'm working to improve on and certainly to try make my characters more well rounded.

    Thankfully I've had @danelle to act as a sounding board and help guide in improving on character designs, and one thing I'll be more conscious of with creating future characters is to be more diverse with body shapes in particular.

    Another interesting topic to consider with anthro characters is hair as a racial signifier (along with clothing, accents, mannerisms and interests). It's something Danelle has brought up in discussions with her, that considering animals don't necessarily have hairstyles as such, it leaves this pretty open when doing anthro versions to add any kind of hairstyle or not at all, but a quick search on the DeviantArt gallery for 'African wild dog' throws up loads of results of characters running around in loin clothes and beads carrying spears, though usually no hairstyle (with this kind of stereotyped approach I was expecting them to throw in afros too)
    Thanked by 2dammit danelle
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    Yeah it's amazing how people manage to exoticize other cultures even when they're not directly drawing humans. I've seen loads of Ahfrikaaah (imagine that being said in a cheesy, exotic "African" accent as per lame tourism commercials) animals that are covered in a mishmash of beads, spears, grass skirts, and other such adornments. They are of course wantonly thrown on and draw from entirely unrelated cultures, and sometimes just entirely made up but are still recognisable as "African," much like Blackface is recognisable as representing Black people. Not to mention that they are usually naked.

    They are often used as flavour characters, or novelties to be sold at Anthrocon, etc. Their intention is usually not diversity, but novelty.

    This is the weirdest and most disturbing mix of romanticizing the exotic (see: noble savage trope) and the Wunderkammer-like behaviour of collecting the exotic and through this making oneself appear more informed, interesting or superior. There's an icky Occidental attitude of ownership about stuff like this that's difficult to see if one is insensitive to these things. Even people with good intentions mess up, like a bull in a china shop.

    I would actually say if these were drawings of actual humans it would be more obvious that it's a horrible thing to do, but since they're animals, it tends to disarm the viewer. After all, it's just fantasy, right? :|
    Thanked by 3Gibbo dammit damousey
  • When I think anthropomorphic perfection, I just think of Juanjo Guarnido of Blacksad,
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    as they use Anthro to express a more 'honest' portrait of people, of which the animal can be used to exemplify who they are, a hyperbole of what their major personality is, be it brutal, cunning or literally, weasely. But indeed within the furry fandom, there is a lot of cultural exoticism when you break away from this strange conglomerated western styled internet melting pot. I feel this simply needs to follow the rules of always think of sensitivity, especially when you are branching out into a culture that you personally have very little connection or knowledge in.
    I recently made a rough sketchy piece of a character, which on a whim became Hawaiian when I decided to not just 'make them white, the default' and with this I gave them a large polynesian Tattoo on their shoulder, with the immediate worry that there may be cultural difficulties around a woman with a polynesian pe'a. when asking around to see if this was Okay, most people, including hawaiian artist gave the reaction that people have their own right to get tattoos of whatever they want. So yes I worried too much, but overall that's better than throwing out just anything without a care if it'd offend an entire culture.

    Now onto the question at hand: by warrant of being anthro, that does not immediately render something as diverse, especially thinking of animals representing individuals and not races. and sadly, oftentimes anthro art is just as limited and un-varied, with athletic characters that just so happen to have an animal head, and anything other than that are often more fetishized as opposed to seen as 'normal' much like porn. so, as a person who has made anthro art and literally likes it, I'd hope to see a range and really see the character more, than simply seeing this strange 'Egyptian god treatment'. (for one, as I've become more comfortable with myself, my Fursona has gained weight over time.)

    @Gibbo for a defined crit: That is a bird with boobs... why is that a bird with boobs? that's sorta the anthro equivalent of highly impractical female armour. this needless sexualizing that simply makes no sense to character design and the viewer. I mean you aren't the first to do it.
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    As a final note, because we have thus far ignored this: 'funny animals' have (somewhat accidentally despite their creators) become somewhat timeless and to some level, without ethnicity or culture, such is the case of Looney toons, some of the mickey Mouse squad and more recently, shows like My Little Pony. And in games, there is a lot of potential, such as old Sly Cooper games or crash bandicoot. recently seeing a lot of mobile games with animal mascots. they are a 'safe zone' for culturally subtle characters if handled well and a reason to not knock anthro art in games. Also: if people didn't pick it up: I like games with children in mind.
  • (Is this thread kind of broken for anyone else? None of the images are resizing for me. I'm on Chrome.)
    I don't think putting boobs on a bird character is wrong in principle. Characters can be designed in many different ways. I certainly put boobs on a lot of anthros, it's the way I learnt to draw them, heavily influenced by Tracy Butler's older work as well. The issue is more the overall prevalence of sexualization in character design. If you can have pregnant male cat taurs with boobs, I'm sure putting boobs on a bird is okay. :p (Yes, I've been down the DEEP END of furry)
    And Junajo Guarnido is... his art is just unbelievable. Without a doubt my favourite anthro artist of all times, and one of my overall favourite illustrators too. Especially since I am also a painter and have a deep, deep appreciation for hand-rendered watercolour scenes of this complexity. Guarnido does tend to give his (all straight) leads hot bodies though. Dat lips on dat deer and cats. I find it difficult to get upset about it though because of the wide variety of character designs, and the trope, although very clichéd, is in fact specific to the noir genre. That being said, I'd love to see a nonbinary noir comic, wouldn't that be cool?
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    It's something I don't understand about the furry culture - why do the animals have boobs at all? Humans are the only mammals (afaik) that have mammary glands that are always visible. Other mammals only show theirs when they need them.

    And then of course, there is the question of why a bird has boobs at all - given it is not a mammal?

    Are boobs the only way we recognise something as female? I think that's a question to explore and it may be worth looking at the works of women who have had their breasts removed and how their personal identity is affected...and why it shouldn't be.
  • Well, duh, boobs are the only way to tell if anything is female.

    Like these rock-people:
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    (I still can't get over that design in Wildstar... Yeesh)
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    @danelle forum theme is currently going through transition pains, not just your browser.

    I was writing a pretty intense reply around a theory I hold of furdom actually being a rejection of media models and then I realized it would either read as really insensitive or that I'd actually have to write the book in a post. Or at least with far more consideration in communication than I have time for right now.

    This thread is heading toward rehashing territory, let's try to keep it on the "look, I'm finding new diversity here too!" territory, rather than the "ergh, another terrible misstep" direction. Just be vigilant.

    Speaking of, let me introduce you to Minttu

    Anyway, if we're going to talk about art from Wildstar, you won't be able to tear me away from their environmental concepts *drool*
    Thanked by 1Steamhat
  • Gawd wildstar! you have one of the best styles in existence but that doesn't mean I agree with your standards of character design. much like where I was stuck with both dragon age and Mass effect. they've performed design atrocities, but man does it look pretty and enchanting.
    but seriously...
    image
    these are different species. That's not how biology works...
    and therein is the major problem with the issues raised here, what separates good design, from the bad, is all too often that good design in aesthetics is convincing someone to imagine, or accept or simply believe in what is pictured. and when something breaks your understanding, the illusion breaks. and this is where the awkwardness of sexualized women comes in, it's simple an unreasonable standard that needs to be controlled.

    @damousey whilst I don't want to make this into a fight, there is intention to discuss what we simply clearly, may not be perfect on. whilst yeah, encouraging the practice of breaking away from a default.

    @danelle I know that it's a practice, but it literally feels insulting in how blazingly unthought out it is. Anime is taught 'specific rules' but that does not mean they work. that it doesn't teach you lazy approaches to conveying rather complex things.
    and yes, Blacksad has a very stereotyped style to the genders, and I personally think that is most a flaw in who those women are, all stereotypes of noir, smart yet limited personalities behind good looks. still saying that it's the best use of anthros plausibly ever.
    I have personally delved into furry what-the-***kery. and yes, hyper-sexualization is a thing, with a lot of bizarre and obscure extremes, but anthro art is not limited to furry, when there's an aesthetic realm that is seporate from a subculture realm that has developed it's own trends, and practices
    Thanked by 1dammit
  • So I happened to come across this little game which I think looks kinda neat. Posting it here because - hey look - the main character is not white! And the story has nothing to do with his race.

    image

    http://morefiregames.com/boy-and-his-pup/
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    @damousey I was actually just going to post the same, the thread's going off track. @dislekcia and @dammit if you guys are interested the addition of breasts to creatures that don't actually exist but of which character design and humanization definitely falls on a wide scale from animal to completely human to completely hybrid fantasy (see: pregnant male cat taurs), you are welcome to private message me and we can talk about it.
  • It's actually a discussion I'd love to have too, maybe we should start a new thread?

    Maybe the rebel in me just wants to see a thread called " Birds and their boobs" :D
    Thanked by 1Tuism
  • Lol. Maybe? It's not directly relevant to game design but if people feel like talking furry, I am more than happy to contribute. I am a former furry after all.
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    OH. What I meant to post about earlier is the amazing designs of Evan Dahm in his webcomic Vattu. The characters are definitely referred to as either male or female, but there are just about no gender signifiers so that you're pretty much left guessing until another character refers to he/she/him/her. Highly recommended reading!

    If anyone wants a list of nonbinary and/or female lead/unconventional character lead comics, you are welcome to talk to me. I follow around 86 webcomics at the moment and all of them contain unusual and interesting characters. I have a ton of stuff on my to-read list as well.

    Our webcomic Cottonstar also contains a lead who is a PoC and who has a post apocalyptic peg leg. Her name is Reka and she is the ship's cook and she is pretty awesome. We recently redeveloped her character because initially she was Maori, but since then we've realised the design was culturally insensitive, so we posted a public apology and have changed her to a lady of mixed South African heritage.
    new-cast-reka-580.jpg
    580 x 434 - 95K
    Thanked by 1Gibbo
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    Erik Chaklee
    a modern day auger, or haruspex for a comic I most definitely lack the writing chops for. He acompanies Panda, (who I think I shared above, the 'cigarette witch')
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