South African Game Developers Association
I'm going to post something Nick Hall wrote over at SAGD. I really hope he doesn't mind me reposting it here. I thought it was very insightful and I'd like for that discussion (which halted at SAGD) to continue here:<div><br></div><div><div style="background-color: transparent; font-family: Times; font-size: medium; "><b id="internal-source-marker_0.7197622596286237" style="font-weight: normal; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#333333"><span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">I think I’d better explain some stuff so everyone is on the same page.</span><br><span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; "><br></span></font></b></div><div style="background-color: transparent; font-family: Times; font-size: medium; "><b style="font-weight: normal; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#333333"><span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">I’m under the impression (from my reading of the recent posts about developing the community at least) that some form of legal entity needs to be formed to “own” the community and act as the link between the members of the community and the outside world.</span><br><span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; "><br></span></font></b></div><div style="background-color: transparent; font-family: Times; font-size: medium; "><b style="font-weight: normal; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#333333"><span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">There are several forms this entity could take:</span><span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; "><br></span></font></b></div><div style="background-color: transparent; font-family: Times; font-size: medium; "><b style="font-weight: normal; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#333333"><span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">1) A Pty(Ltd), just like a normal company</span><br><span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">2) A Not for Profit Company (It used to be called a s21 Company)</span><br><span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">3) A Trust</span><br><span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">4) A Common Law Association</span><br><span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; "><br></span></font></b></div><div style="background-color: transparent; font-family: Times; font-size: medium; "><b style="font-weight: normal; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#333333"><span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">Given what the entity would be likely to do, a Pty(Ltd) would be unsuitable (because it would need to operate for profit, and the other 3 forms have certain benefits for what would want to be done).</span><br><span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; "><br></span></font></b></div><div style="background-color: transparent; font-family: Times; font-size: medium; "><b style="font-weight: normal; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#333333"><span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">Of the remaining three a Common Law Association is;</span><br><span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">a) the simplest to form</span><br><span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">b) the cheapest to form</span><br><span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">c) has the least number of formal requirements to maintain.</span><br><span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; "><br></span></font></b></div><div style="background-color: transparent; font-family: Times; font-size: medium; "><b style="font-weight: normal; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#333333"><span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">If the community grows to the extent that it is handling millions of Rands of funds then it can be “upgraded” to a NPC, but that is for the future (a Trust is wholly unsuitable and has waaaaaaay to many administrative issues).</span><br><span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; "><br></span></font></b></div><div style="background-color: transparent; font-family: Times; font-size: medium; "><b style="font-weight: normal; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#333333"><span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">The advantages of a formal association are varied and many. But to my mind the most important are:</span><span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; "><br></span></font></b></div><div style="background-color: transparent; font-family: Times; font-size: medium; "><b style="font-weight: normal; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#333333"><span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">a) It gives the community an entity to interact, formally, with all the other structures that it needs to interact with (for example the Films and Publications Board, Publishers, SARS).</span><br><span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">b) It opens up potential for receiving funding from outside the community (Like goverment structures) and using that funding towards community goals.</span><br><span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; "><br></span></font></b></div><div style="background-color: transparent; font-family: Times; font-size: medium; "><b style="font-weight: normal; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#333333"><span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">In real terms here are some things I’d like to see the community do (and this would be achievable through the association):</span><span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; "><br></span></font></b></div><div style="background-color: transparent; font-family: Times; font-size: medium; "><b style="font-weight: normal; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#333333"><span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">a) We could use the Association to setup a Indie Fund style grant to help starting developers get games off the ground.</span><br><span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">b) We can use the Association to talk with and encourage “proper” game development courses at tertiary education institutions</span><br><span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">c) We could use the Association to start outreach programs to School to encourage game development as a legitimate career path in the country, and start training up talent.</span><br><span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">d) The Association could petition, nag and pester the FPB to approve a PEGI express rating system</span><br><span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; "><br></span></font></b></div><div style="background-color: transparent; font-family: Times; font-size: medium; "><b style="font-weight: normal; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#333333"><span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">And the list goes on.</span><br><span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; "><br></span></font></b></div><div style="background-color: transparent; font-family: Times; font-size: medium; "><b style="font-weight: normal; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#333333"><span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">Lastly the most important aspect of the Association is that it is it’s own “self” and would ideally “own” the community web page and forums. This means that if ‘key’ members leave or for some reason can’t continue the Association goes on. Hopefully this will prevent things like what has happened to Game.Dev. There is a huge amount of valuable information stored in that forum that we as a community can’t readily get to because it is owned by, and operated by a magazine.</span><br><span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; "><br></span></font></b></div><div style="background-color: transparent; font-family: Times; font-size: medium; "><b style="font-weight: normal; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#333333"><span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; ">... If the Association was formed, I would expect it to pay [the owners of the community web page and forums] to host and maintain its site.</span><br><span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; "><br></span></font></b></div><div style="background-color: transparent; font-family: Times; font-size: medium; "><b style="font-weight: normal; "><span style="font-size: 15px; font-family: Arial; background-color: transparent; font-weight: normal; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; text-decoration: none; vertical-align: baseline; white-space: pre-wrap; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#333333">Nick</font></span></b></div><div style="background-color: transparent; font-family: Times; font-size: medium; "></div><div style="background-color: transparent; font-family: Times; font-size: medium; "></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" face="Arial"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 15px; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></span></font></div><div><br></div></div>
Comments
But if we're going to be humorous I say make it a guild ;) Like Game Makers Guild ( GMG ) or something.
South African Gathering of Game Enthusiasts & Developers
South African Game Architects
Say No Or Pull A Zap At Negative Attitude :p
Oafs Making Games
We Make Games
Fungineers (Not The Mushroom Kind)
While I do agree that a formal legal entity has its benefits, I'd like to ask you guys to keep this concern in mind. As I understand it, this is how most creative industries operate - where their respective associations act more like barriers of entry than supportive platforms. And there are so many of them, because of fragmentation and politics.
In my opinion the only way to go is to keep basic membership free, but run opt-in campaigns, workshops and events. This will make it easier for kids who are interested in gamedev to get involved and also saves the trouble of trying convince existing developers to join - they have nothing to lose.
Additionally the logo should be licensed openly such that you only need to be a member of the forum to have permission to display it on your site, game or whatever. This will allow the organisation to become ubiquitous with all South African Game Development without being tied down to specific corporate entities, people or groups, much like how the "Proudly South African" logo can be adopted by anyone.
tl;dr open access/leveled platform rather than exclusivity/elitism plox
P.S. Game Developer's Guild of South Africa (GDGSA) sounds good to me.
Currently there is only "General" membership, which is free. I've added clauses that allow the governing structure to add more classes of membership if they desire it. In order to get rid of the free membership though one would need to redraft the constitution which would require a 75% majority vote of all registered members to be approved.
I've drafted the constitution to make the association as agile and open as possible, but certain things need to be included if we want to register it with Department of Social Development, which would be crucial if we want to look at getting government funding.
I can imagine one of the presenters on YoTV saying that when they interview some game dev people:
"Today we speak to some of the guys from Make Games SA, the local association for game developers!"
The name is positive, because it tells people in SA to "make games".
Is it possible that the association has a formal and informal name?
If it is possible I would propose that it be formally know as the Game Makers' Association of South Africa (GMASA)
While it is simply referred to as Make Games SA (MGSA)
(Multiple names are confusing, especially if some bright spark decides to register the alternate name as a domain and what not).
A simple, professional name would be cool. I like Make Games South Africa, and all the GX[X]SA are OK too (if X is not toooo silly).
If we need a more formal name, or a second name for the association because these forums aren't an appropriate website, I kind of like "Guild" being in there, because of it's video game referentiality.
I'd trust @LexAquilla to choose a name. It seems to me like the options are all solid now (I think?).
I don't want, nor think we need, an association for the sake of an association. My only concern should be making and getting my games out there, not worrying about membership fees and renewals, committees or any of the usual hindrances. This is based on how I've seen other associations operate (or indeed, not operate).
Right now, I think this website and those here, are all the community really needs. Am I wrong?
I think, to answer whether a structure is needed, we just ask this question: what would that association DO? What would the members do? Is it anything not already happening here?
1. The community is bottlenecked down to individuals
This has been the case with both Game.Dev, where my time became the limiting factor on getting things done, and later SAGD, where Korax essentially held the community to ransom and demanded that he have special rights to make decisions that affected everyone. An association deals with this by being more than just 1 person (who can be as benevolent as they like, they'll still be a problem eventually) and having reporting functions so that regular community members can step in and keep things moving as needed.
2. Opportunities to use existing support structures kept getting missed
Game,Dev never succeeded in lobbying for anything, even though I would personally lecture to government and/or entrepreneurship support systems multiple times a year. Because Game.Dev wasn't a recognisable entity, beyond being just me and "a bunch of kids" (not my words), it was difficult to get it taken seriously in non-game-developer circles. An association deals with that by instantly granting a form of legitimacy to the community as a whole. This grants everyone access to more opportunities for funding, events, travel and even tax rebates. This shit is important, but you're not going to think of it as a lone dev, toiling into the late hours of the night. That's what associations are for, to help make doing this thing we love less hard and arduous than it already is.
3. It doesn't have to be binding
Yes, the more everyone is involved in stuff like forming the association, the better. But that doesn't grant the association control of anything... We're not talking bullshit like the MSSA somehow claiming control of all competitive online gaming in South Africa here. We're talking about establishing a system to serve game development in ways that haven't been able to be successfully done before. You want more competitions, more local content, more meetups, more visibility and more talented individuals to make games with? Well, that's what the association is there to help create. As soon as it doesn't do that and turns into a waste of time, feel free to ignore it - or, y'know, change it for the better again, just like we did with SAGD ;)
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Remember, this isn't something that we're doing because bureaucracy is amazing. This is a response to issues that have been indentified in the past... I mean, take a look at Dev.Mag, which is still going strong because it embraced a TEAM structure, even while it was led by a succession of strong individuals. It's that team element that has kept it alive today and allowed @HermanTulleken, @Karuji and co to keep it relevant and useful.
Plus, we're all system designers here, c'mon! If we can't design an awesome association that disincentivises the slow creep towards derpness that defines associations in most of your eyes, what the hell are we doing thinking we can build games?
A good team structure sounds great, as long as guys here have defined goals. I'm too noob to know any of these agendas so I'm just gonna... support those who know what the "existing support structures" and "opportunities" are. I'm a practical man, show me something real and I'm all ears :)
@Tuism: You ask what would the association do that wasn't already happening here, well, this place only exists because of the desire to create an association. People were being under-served by SAGD and the tepid ghost of Game.Dev, so a bunch of us decided to change that and up our participation. That pointed out that certain things needed doing, so we tried to get them to happen at SAGD. They couldn't. So this place arose... How does this forum stay online? What else do we want in terms of online presence? Is there anyone regularly talking to press to tell them what's coming out of this place? Who runs the server and maintains stuff? What happens if that person (or persons) suddenly get too busy? These things have killed larger communities before - Legion Ink has had similar problems in the past that I know of, if you're tired of hearing me talk about Game.Dev.
@ShadowBlade: I don't think anyone mentioned membership fees at all. Where is that coming from? The costs that this community has already incurred have been covered by me and others as donations. Future payments are probably going to be handled in similar ways, although obviously I'd like it if it wasn't just the same people donating all the time... By all means, point out things you don't like about associations, but can we use those as things to guide the design of our community and association, instead of deciding that we need to throw a bunch of babies out with whatever bathwater we're getting rid of?
Having an established body and talking to the press and regularly holding events and happenings in its name is a good idea for the longevity of game dev in SA in general, and that I can definitely rally behind.
If I may, I guess something of a roadmap like this is what I would be looking for, if an association is to become useful/practical:
1) Name
2) Logo
3) Membership/display of membership (site/shirt/membership card/meetings/jams/etc)
4) Getting attendance
5) Getting immediate, known industry interested
6) Getting non-immediate people interested
7) Make noise
Repeat.
I'm oversimplifying, but I believe this is what people are looking for. Right?
@dislekcia: Membership fees. I probably sucked that out of thin air, simply by association. I'm not familiar with any association that doesn't have fees. All the points you mention are fair, and membership fees are not my main concern.
I'm not awesome at putting thoughts to words, but let me try.
Basically my concern is, if the association gets established, the various structures will only communicate with the "legitimate" entity (association), and you'll either have to be a member of that entity and agree to it's rules or you're out in the cold. I dislike being tied down by any external influence. If it's nothing like that, great! But that's really my worry as to where this will lead. I've gotten on hindrance-free without association thus far, so the establishment of such as thing would have to provide something of value to me. I welcome being pleasantly surprised ;)
In terms of your other point, it is a bit of a catch-22. Yes the association will bring a form of legitimacy, but because it does, it is likely that formal structures will only want to interact with it. That being said, the association cannot operate for profit, and has to "give back" to the community it represents in order for it to legally operate. So hopefully it will add value to you as a developer. Let me ask you this, how would you like the association to add value to you?
@Tuism, good roadmap!
Anyone care to enlighten me?
I just don't want the association to remove any freedoms and choice that exists for me now, simply by being there, member or not. That's really my only concern :) I also realize that it will take some time to get to a point where formal structures will only operate with the association.