Zombie Apocalypse Arcade (iOS & Hopefully Android)

edited in Projects
Hello everyone,

Pleased to make your acquaintances err, online that is. I'm new to talking about game development mostly because I fell into the trap most of you probably know all too well: that downward spiral of continuous development with no set goals and no released product. You know, everything that is completely the opposite of your corporate career. I'm here to break the cycle, to announce myself and to be part of this community as much as time will allow me to.

I worked on a cricket simulator for about 5 years. When I say about 5 years, well that would just be the calendar terms. In reality, I spent a few hours every day. Most weekends and quite possibly 90% of my holiday time on it. As a married man and father of 2 that's a lot to juggle. I don't (and didn't) get out much but more importantly, I never finished. There was always more to do, ways to be more accurate. Ways to simulate more on field events.

So, this year, I halted the project. In turn, I entered uncharted territory. I quite literally took a different approach and went with the road that opened up at every new idea. Since I've started, I've got a game working on my Xbox, my Android and my iPhone. I'm well aware that my graphical skills are lacking and that my game "engine" if I can call it that is in it's 'minimum viable product' stage. Yet, to avoid falling into the same trap and to see how things go, I've submitted it to Apple and am awaiting their review.

Here's a link to the final stage's gameplay trailer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqfHfKbGFLk
As far as I can tell most of you use Unity, I don't. I use monogame and nothing more, no public framework no AI engine, nothing. If I need it, I code it.

In the process I've discovered quite a lot about game programming that differs to the corporate world, or the thinking at least, but more importantly, I found that a little clever thinking can go a long way. For example, you'll notice that in the video there are 244 Zombie's walking around independently, each one trying to kill the hero. That's a lot of movement on one screen, don't you think?

As a typical coder, my graphic's skills are seriously lacking but getting better and I'm learning exactly where my limitations are (the intro video for one). Everything you see was drawn in Microsoft Paint. Yes, you read that right. I drew about 2500 individual sprites in paint to make the game work. The game graphics are workable, but needs more detail and my animations could do with more frames. Actually, I think my map editor is more impressive than my game, HAHAHAHAHAHA.

Anyway, I find myself writing longer and longer every time I do it, so I must be enjoying it. Tell me what you guys think, keep going or drop and do something else?

Comments

  • Welcome to the site :)

    What is it that you're looking to achieve with this game? Often what happens with projects that have already been released is people find it hard to give useful crits because they're not going to be used as the project is unlikely to go through much change. Maybe it might be a good idea to highlight areas or parts of the development/design that you had problems with or would like to talk about more?

    Random stuff that I'd possibly talk about, if you're keen to do so:
    -Difficulty identifying player on the screen, attacks not drawing much attention to the player.
    -Small inventory button compared to huge virtual sticks, what made you decide to go with virtual dpad anyway?
    -Are the health bars on regular zombies really needed? I could understand on boss characters, but regular zombies needing bars just tells me that their being hit state animations and effects aren't compelling enough, so players need reassurance that their attacks are actually doing something to them.

    Also, yay for getting stuff working on 360 ;)
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    Hey! Welcome to the forums!

    I'm a fan of zombie games, and especially zombie games that focus on killing LOTS of zombies. So I like the direction you've experimented in.
    LazyLizzard said:
    Tell me what you guys think, keep going or drop and do something else?
    If you've got a burning desire to try out any idea and see what happens then you should.

    Things that struck me when watching the video.

    - The enemies just disappear, which makes it a bit harder to glok what just happened. I like bloody zombie games, so I'd recommend blood splats and blood sprays. But some kind of feedback is needed. (I think sometimes zombies leave tombstones? But not always). (@Dislekcia mentioned this as well)

    - It was hard to determine what constitutes a mistake in Zombie Apocalypse Arcade. In most games going bare knuckles against zombies while surrounded is an untenable position (and so a big mistake).

    - I like that you've got different weapons, and knock back effects on the zombies. There could be some camera shake on grenade explosions (and camera shake on punching zombies and firing weapons).

    - Permanent bloodstains, or clearing levels, help with giving players a sense of achievement. Killing zombies and scrounging for weaponery is fine for the moment to moment stuff, but I don't see what the players' goals are (unless it is just survival? In which case differing waves is important).

    It might be helpful if you post a playable version. That way people can give you better feedback.
    BlackShipsFilltheSky said:
    If you've got a burning desire to try out any idea and see what happens then you should.
    That's the best way to level up your design skills. Starting new projects is also a great way to learn, but it seems to me like there are a lot of potential ways to make Zombie Apocalypse Arcade more fun. I think it's way more important to just get people playing your game (even in an alpha or beta state) than worrying about a formal "release".

    I have a feeling the "Arcade" part of Zombie Apocalypse Arcade is a reference to this sort of gameplay:



    Though I might be wrong?


  • Whoah, some feedback. I like being here already!!

    Right, let me back up a little. I've always worked "iteratively". I'd hate to use the word "agile" simply because I tend to be thrown into the deep end to fix huge stuff ups all by my lonesome self, so where agile more often defines a collaborative team effort, I follow a very similar approach.
    What is it that you're looking to achieve with this game?
    To have fun, to break the routine of spending my days sifting through tons and tons of binary traces (think wireshark etc) and, ultimately, maybe to be lucky enough to earn a little extra income. More importantly, to do something that someone else appreciates. IE, visual creativity rather than back-end complexity.
    Often what happens with projects that have already been released is people find it hard to give useful crits because they're not going to be used as the project is unlikely to go through much change
    That is true. I was hoping to get the game into the hands of people who like these kinds of games sooner rather than later, the sooner the better. Think lean startup principles, fail hard and fail fast. That way, you can change direction before you've over invested. I mean that mostly at the micro level, so for example if a feature in the game doesn't work for gamers, change it sooner rather than later. Or if they play the game differently to what you anticipated, adapt to that and go with it rather than forcing something they don't naturally do.

    So going by the feedback you guys are giving me, just 2 people replying have given me a COMPLETELY different view to the people I am in regular contact with, who play games like WOW regularly. This kind of confirms my thoughts that those close to you will probably tell you what you want to hear rather than being objective. That's why I moved forward and why I posted here as well. That and my wife keeps telling me that the game is ready, release it. HEHE. Behind every man eh?

    I have submitted to Apple, thinking at least if I go through the process I know what it entails, but at the same time I don't know if I *should* release. Maybe I should wait and see if they approve it and then decline the binary. I've got a few more days to sleep on it I suppose. Maybe I'm allowing general web feedback to drive me too much rather than doing what I believe should be done, maybe?
    Also, yay for getting stuff working on 360
    And what a frigging mission it was. Have you tried it? Coding was easy. Getting ONTO the Xbox is damn near impossible. Sometimes it feels like since we live in SA, we are excluded by default. It's annoying as hell. One thing I'm hoping to find out from this community is how they sell on Google Play. If you read their terms and conditions they expressly say that only free games from SA are allowed, which sucks. It costs money to make games. You can probably guess that I've spent some too already! lol.
    Difficulty identifying player on the screen, attacks not drawing much attention to the player.
    I had a bit of a "roadshow" today and quite a few people played the game. I picked up exactly what you are saing plus something else, most people take the device and want to play using their index finger. Then they look at me with this "oh gosh, what now" look on their faces not knowing what to do. So I need to seriously look at this. Admittedly though, the video quality isn't great and the video also shows the final stage, so you get quite a ramp up before there are that many Zombies. By the time you get there, you'd be used to spotting your guy. BUT, that doesn't make it NOT true, it's true. I need to look at it.
    Small inventory button compared to huge virtual sticks, what made you decide to go with virtual dpad anyway?
    Initially, compatibility & consistency. My kids play it on the Xbox and on the phone I had my path finding algo track where you touch the screen, but it felt 'empty' so I unified it.
    Permanent bloodstains
    Maybe I have the wrong genre for my kids, but since they are my main players I consciously considered them when I did things. Can I get the same feeling across without risking exposure to violent feedback like that? Am I being silly by being overly cautious?
    Are the health bars on regular zombies really needed?
    I didn't think so, but the few WOW guys who played the game kept on asking for it, so I put it in... Maybe I misunderstood their requirement and they don't want to say it for some or other reason? I did clarify though, "As a player, I want to see..."
    Anyway, I'll ask them on Monday and give you feedback here.
    It was hard to determine what constitutes a mistake in Zombie Apocalypse Arcade.
    I purposely don't punish the player for doing anything silly and you can recover from most things. I've been reading lots and lots of blogs on mobile gaming and it seems that most developers seem to suggest that mobile gamers have a different take on games to PC or console gamers. Again, I can't confirm or deny this. I would have thought a proper challenge would work better. I'm also surpised at how divided the mobile gaming scene is. One guy can make this horrid looking ASCII based game and people love it, someone else does it and they hate it, lol.
    it seems to me like there are a lot of potential ways to make Zombie Apocalypse Arcade more fun.
    You don't know how happy I am to hear that. The "Arcade" is exactly as you had explained it, a simple take on the game engine for Zombie Apocalypse where clear out all the Zombies and once you're done you go to the next stage.

    Where I am headed is to have the game be more of a post apocalypse strategy game, where you grow food, scout for supplies, fend off zombies, set traps and defences and last for as long as possible.
    Initially though, I didn't plan on making a Zombie game at all, one thing kind of led to another and I ended up here, hehe.

    I asked if I should keep going or focus on something else because I don't have much time for games. Don't get me wrong I like playing games, but to get Zombie Apocalypse to where it is now has taken about every waking moment I've had at home for the last few months. So in addition to my full time job, 5 or so hours a day extra, every Saturday, every Sunday. At one stage I took 3 weeks leave so I could work on it full time. I'm not complaining, I just don't have excess time and as such don't know what to compare it against.

    Thank you again for the comments, I really appreciate it.

    Any ideas on how to approach making a playable version available without releasing it but also without compromising your end product?
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    LazyLizzard said:
    Any ideas on how to approach making a playable version available without releasing it but also without compromising your end product?
    Compromise how?

    If I understand correctly, you're worried about the game already being played by a substantial amount of the potential players before release and so total sales are lessened by those players not purchasing it?

    If that's the question then say that there are always more potential players. Defeating obscurity is the real problem, and improving the game is the surest way to achieve that.

    I can't remember who said it, but I'm pretty certain this is explained in something called something like "The Infinite Player Theory". In that there are always more players for small indie devs, and so releasing a beta can only ever help you.

    Or are you worried about spoiling the marketing push or something else being compromised?


  • Compromise in the sense that I'm building a game geared at iOS & Android. Playing it on the PC is just not the same, but that may be just me being silly because I've played my own game so many times now.

    Are you saying that I can let my fear go, zip my build and upload it and let people play it? That the world won't end if I do so? Should I go make a tin foil helmet before I upload it?

    On a more serious note, is that what you guys did with Bro Force? Don't you obfuscate your code to prevent decompilation or am I seriously over complicating a very simple concept here?
  • edited
    And what a frigging mission it was. Have you tried it? Coding was easy. Getting ONTO the Xbox is damn near impossible. Sometimes it feels like since we live in SA, we are excluded by default. It's annoying as hell. One thing I'm hoping to find out from this community is how they sell on Google Play. If you read their terms and conditions they expressly say that only free games from SA are allowed, which sucks. It costs money to make games. You can probably guess that I've spent some too already! lol.
    Yup. We had a game called SpaceHack make the top 10 in 2008's DreamBuildPlay contest. Haven't really kept up to date on the App Store Hub Live Whatever It's Called Now since is stopped being Creators Club. Given that XBLIG isn't a sane place to release a game and doing any kind of related development for a Microsoft console means no XNA or Monogame anyway, I'm not too bothered. It was a lot of fun have your games run on a 360 though and the hardware was way more forgiving than the other consoles I'd worked on.
    I have submitted to Apple, thinking at least if I go through the process I know what it entails, but at the same time I don't know if I *should* release.
    If you still want to work on the game, don't release it. If you want to work on something new, release it and let it do whatever it might do. Ask yourself if you do release it, are you going to support it with marketing and chasing down press for reviews, etc?
    Maybe I have the wrong genre for my kids, but since they are my main players I consciously considered them when I did things. Can I get the same feeling across without risking exposure to violent feedback like that? Am I being silly by being overly cautious?
    I would imagine that a game that focuses around shooting and punching things isn't going to be any less violent for a lack of blood. Why would you make a zombie game for your kids to play in the first place? ;)
    I didn't think so, but the few WOW guys who played the game kept on asking for it, so I put it in... Maybe I misunderstood their requirement and they don't want to say it for some or other reason? I did clarify though, "As a player, I want to see..." Anyway, I'll ask them on Monday and give you feedback here.
    As the anecdote goes: Players don't know what they want and can't explain their desires. So you might get a player complaining that a particular gun in a game isn't powerful enough and a designer will sit and tweak numbers for days and mess with refire rates and totally mess up the cross-weapon balance just to satisfy this one issue. Then another designer doesn't do any of that and just ups the bass on the firing sound and suddenly everyone is fine with the weapon.

    Players can tell you what they're feeling, but they can't relate the reason they're feeling that back to the game. So players wanting health bars probably means they want more feedback on damage and damage effects, because that's one thing that they do give you in the context of your game (the other thing being the ability to track damage amounts, which isn't needed in your game because the enemies don't go into different states or have armor and weapon damage seems pretty consistently high anyway). If these particular players are used to playing WoW and spend ages looking at health bars to gauge attack effectiveness, then they're going to suggest health bars to you. That doesn't mean health bars are the most elegant or engaging way to solve the problem ;)
    Any ideas on how to approach making a playable version available without releasing it but also without compromising your end product?
    Just put it up for people to download so they can give you feedback. I'm not really sure what you mean about an end product being compromised... The in-progress versions you put up won't be the final game anyway, that's why you want feedback. What are you worried about?

    @BlackShipsFilltheSky: I think that might have been Chris Hecker's Infinite Player theory, at least, that's what people call it sometimes. It's very true.
  • LazyLizzard said:
    Compromise in the sense that I'm building a game geared at iOS & Android. Playing it on the PC is just not the same, but that may be just me being silly because I've played my own game so many times now.
    Oh, that might be somewhat tricky. But I think what you can try do is take the feedback you get on PC and try view it from an IOS lens. If the controls don't work as well on PC then ignore some of the feedback about controls, or try figure out what they really mean and see how it applies.

    And I guess just be clear to players about what they're getting. I think the folks on these forums are capable of playing a game and trying to imagine it on IOS/Android.
    LazyLizzard said:
    On a more serious note, is that what you guys did with Bro Force? Don't you obfuscate your code to prevent decompilation or am I seriously over complicating a very simple concept here?
    Yeah. We haven't taken any security measures in Broforce at all. At the moment we have a version which only people who have pre-ordered it receive. But we are still updating the free playable, and we only started putting anything behind a paywall a year into full time development (and only because we were going to run out of money otherwise).
  • Ack! @Dislekcia beat me to the answers!
    Dislekcia said:
    I think that might have been Chris Hecker's Infinite Player theory, at least, that's what people call it sometimes. It's very true.
    I'm going to try remember that this time. I think it's a beautiful thought.
  • Alighty then, points taken. I've come this far and I'll take the advice I get, otherwise what's the point of asking for advice, right?

    I'm going to pull my Apple release and get to work on the things you guys mentioned so far. I'll keep you updated and once I've chewed on a bit of it, I'll zip my build and upload it for you guys to play.

    I purchased a few goodies today so hopefully I can add more effects to the gameplay now.
    Yup. We had a game called SpaceHack make the top 10 in 2008's DreamBuildPlay contest. Haven't really kept up to date on the App Store Hub Live Whatever It's Called Now since is stopped being Creators Club. Given that XBLIG isn't a sane place to release a game and doing any kind of related development for a Microsoft console means no XNA or Monogame anyway, I'm not too bothered. It was a lot of fun have your games run on a 360 though and the hardware was way more forgiving than the other consoles I'd worked on.
    The only way to get it onto the XBOX is through DreamSpark, so you need a student number to make that happen. I nearly joined a silly UNISA course just to get the number but turns out my brother-in-law had one :D But his student number was registered to his Unisa email address, and the XNA Connect wouldn't accept it. It was a huge trial and error to get the DreamSpark account and Xbox live account properly synced and I very nearly have up, lol.
    If you still want to work on the game, don't release it. If you want to work on something new, release it and let it do whatever it might do.
    Or, keep working on it, and when I need a little distraction, do something else that's not as complicated for a short while. I'm an indie with a full time job, I don't need to pressure myself and push myself into a corner. I just need to accept that I have more flexibility than I think.
    Ask yourself if you do release it, are you going to support it with marketing and chasing down press for reviews, etc?
    Of course. I didn't see my initial idea of a putting it on the store as a "release", I saw it as a way to get the game out to people I don't know so that I could get feedback. If it turned out that people liked it, even better!
    Why would you make a zombie game for your kids to play in the first place?
    You don't have kids do you? LOL. They walk into your office at odd times, they ask questions about everything and they want to know about everything. If you keep them away from something you'll be sure to achieve the opposite. So no, I'm not making a Zombie game for my kids, but as it turns out I can't keep them at arms length, especially if I'm in my office every waking minute. So then I started considering them instead of getting angry and pushing them away. My kids are 8 and 9, so they aren't exactly blind to what I do any more.
    the folks on these forums are capable of playing a game and trying to imagine it on IOS/Android
    I don't doubt that for a second. My limited exposure to talking about what I'm doing have shown quite a few errors in my ways. I say errors but in reality it's not really errors, it's more me being stubborn or set in my ways. I like how this process has pushed me to be more open and more flexible. I'm embracing it, and like dislekcia said, maybe a little too much. I need to get back in touch with exactly how I want it to be and that is simple, I want it to seem polished. It's not there yet.
    Yeah. We haven't taken any security measures in Broforce at all. At the moment we have a version which only people who have pre-ordered it receive. But we are still updating the free playable, and we only started putting anything behind a paywall a year into full time development (and only because we were going to run out of money otherwise).
    At least I don't have to worry about running out of money as I'm doing it part time, but, I don't have nearly as much time to work on things as you guys, so it's a different ball game for me. But, I've spent quite a bit of money on software licenses, effect licenses, Mac etc, so I'm sure at some point my wife would like me to either release, or get out of the study, hehe.
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