Creative Suck - How does one art successfully?

Understanding what goes into being a prominent creator (game maker, artist, novelist, filmmaker, startup founder) is a question that has preoccupied me for most of my adult life. In a similar vein to talks I've given at the meet ups about perfectionism and failure, I've started Creative Suck - a different kind of dev log exploring the topic. I'm sharing because I hope it will be relevant to us all. I also want to go deep, asking those questions like "how do you know you've got a game worth working on" and others that we all struggle with.

The first installment can be found here, in which I examine the feels that happen because I've been working on Cadence forever:
https://medium.com/creative-suck/everything-is-not-okay-85046a23b57a

Comments

  • Stoked to see you're doing this Peter! First part was great; looking forward to the future posts!
  • Thanks @TheFuntastic. I think you hit the nail on the head when it comes to what is really at the heart of it all. My struggle to complete projects (postgrad studies and games) is inextricably bound to feelings of self-worth. Funny thing is, I don't even have a couple of fans waiting on any of it. Yet, such is the loudness of the voices. Looking forward to your next post.
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    I'm as attached to the things I make as anyone, probably more than most people. I understand feeling totally crippled and disgusted by the things I'm working on not being what I want them to be (I've had this experience).

    And I think talking about motivation is important. I think we can all learn skills to be more productive and to overcome the creative hurdles that get us stuck.

    But I don't think this is really the problem you're facing now, nor the problem you've been facing for a while (creative block is a problem, but, as I see it, in this case you are facing it as a result of decisions you've made where you could decided differently).

    I know this isn't going to be advice you want to hear, nor advice you're looking for. But I'm upset with myself for not being blunt and frank in the past with you, so I'm going to try to do better now (even if the timing isn't great).

    Here's my honest thoughts:

    The problem you seem to be solving is how to feel motivated to finish a game that you don't feel inspired to finish, and one you don't reasonably expect to reward you for all the time you put into it (or possibly even the time you still need to put into it before you can call it done).

    I think this is the wrong problem to be solving. You shouldn't have gotten yourself into this position in the first place. You should have listened years ago when people were saying "Wrap this game up and take the next step forward".

    This is a matter of entrepreneurship. That you double down on your successes and limit your failures. It's important in running any business, but it's especially important in creative endeavors precisely because these kinds of projects tend to grow in scope and motivation has its limits. And when you're demotivated you're often also not learning anything new, and you are falling behind while all the motivated people are gaining skills and honing their craft (even if they aren't releasing anything).

    My solution hasn't been to slog through until I release the thing no matter what. I've quit multiple projects that I've employed people to work on (and this is before Broforce and Free Lives had any money). I've wasted a lot of my time and my collaborator's time on failed (even doomed) projects, but I've never done what you're doing with Cadence.

    My solution has been to quit when I can't see a reward in finishing something and to try spend my time in the most productive ways that I can. My solution has been to always have multiple projects that I care about waiting unfinished in the wings so that I'd have something to jump onto so that quitting didn't feel like a complete failure (for long anyway). My solution has been to work on whatever I felt most passionate about, to plan projects around motivation, because even if that thing didn't get released, at least while the team is motivated we'd all be gaining skills faster.

    I do of course hope that you find a way to release Cadence and move onto the next thing. I want to play the games you make next, but I really think you've avoided listening to a lot of good advice and you've found yourself in a predictable predicament.

    I think this whole situation is a terrible waste of talent.
    Thanked by 2Tuism francoisvn
  • Coincidentally, this talk from Jonathan Blow popped up in my feed last night, and he makes a couple of good points.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=d0m0jIzJfiQ

    Perhaps Evan is correct, having a bit more context than me, but perhaps there is just something driving you to make this game a reality, which makes it hard to consider working on something else - except that you are experiencing burnout.

    I have not been able to last very long on a single game in the past. I have a tendency to grind at it for a few months straight without respite, and then I always end up hating the project and walking away from it - especially when I discover that I made a mistake in scope or that the fun just isn't there. The last time it took me almost a year before I even felt like building my next game again.

    I sincerely hope you find peace with this project, whether you find a way to cope to bring it to completion, or whether you find the courage to put it away for a while.

    Best of luck man.
    Thanked by 2critic TheFuntastic
  • I highly, highly recommend Steven Pressfield's "The War of Art".

    (Well, the 1st half, before he gets a bit mystical).

    The best thing any aspiring creator can do is learn to recognize what Pressfield calls "Resistance" and the form that it takes in their life.

    It's incredibly seductive, and I fear that even this thread might be falling prey to its siren call.

    It's not a long book, you can read the relevant bits in an evening, easily. I re-read it at least once a year.
  • I know this isn't going to be advice you want to hear, nor advice you're looking for. But I'm upset with myself for not being blunt and frank in the past with you, so I'm going to try to do better now (even if the timing isn't great).
    Oh dear, Evan. I appreciate your pragmatism but this statement feels like a self-conscious summary of the broader post. I think the mark of "tough love" may have been missed somewhat and the nature / platform is unfortunate considering the potentially more gracious opportunities you've been given to comment on this recently. :(

    Peter is an exerciser of conscious resilience, and perhaps this was accounted for in your writ, but there are not many people I would address thusly in this context. I actually respect the idea of leaning in firmly (more than ever nowadays), but these do come across as sentiments which have been "stewing" rather than "considered". <3
    Thanked by 1EvanGreenwood
  • Nandrew said:
    I know this isn't going to be advice you want to hear, nor advice you're looking for. But I'm upset with myself for not being blunt and frank in the past with you, so I'm going to try to do better now (even if the timing isn't great).
    Oh dear, Evan. I appreciate your pragmatism but this statement feels like a self-conscious summary of the broader post. I think the mark of "tough love" may have been missed somewhat and the nature / platform is unfortunate considering the potentially more gracious opportunities you've been given to comment on this recently. :(

    Peter is an exerciser of conscious resilience, and perhaps this was accounted for in your writ, but there are not many people I would address thusly in this context. I actually respect the idea of leaning in firmly (more than ever nowadays), but these do come across as sentiments which have been "stewing" rather than "considered". <3
    Sorry, but I literally don't understand what you mean here... XD Read it like 3 times XD
  • Tuism said:
    Sorry, but I literally don't understand what you mean here... XD Read it like 3 times XD
    Well fak :P

    In simpler terms, I think Evan had some really important things to say, but I wish he'd said them differently. And, given the statement I quoted, I think a part of him wishes the same.

    Looking at his post "from the outside", I understand it can be easy to miss the bluntness. I wonder if you'd be interested in re-reading it, given what I've mentioned. :)
    Thanked by 1Tuism
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    @EvanGreenwood
    Thank for your earnest response. I have to admit it's been a difficult pill to swallow - I thought it wise to pause before I responded.

    What I hear you saying is basically "you've made the mistake of investing too much in this project." And well yes, I'd have to agree. What you identify as problems are things I too have realised: a lack of motivation means a lack of learning, and a project with ballooning in scope is lethal from a business point of view. I also see you providing a course correction, to make sure I don't miss the message of what you're trying to say (ie it's not your motivation that's failed. It's being here in the first place that's the failure). I'm stoked you care enough to give me this advice, I really do respect the choices you've made, and I know you've done a much better job of killing babies than I have here.

    But, like dude, woah!?! I'm not sure if you've read the article, which is a bit different from the conversations we've had on this topic? I hope it's clear in my writing that I'm trying to own my mistakes. To acknowledge that in many ways the price has already been paid and how can I metabolise that and move forward from it? If you'll allow me to quote myself:
    The guilt that I’ve spent so much time and money and I’m doing it wrong and that somewhere at the heart of it I’m fucking up
    Or put another way, that's the shame I'm already carrying from getting this far down the road. Also note how I identify this as a feeling that's keeping me stuck and that if I don't let it go it's ironically going to push me even deeper down the hole?

    That being said, do you really think admonishing me and reinforcing my shame is a constructive way to help me move forward and do something positive about it?
    Thanked by 1dammit
  • @garethf Indeed, I actually own a copy of The War of Art. It has a lot of good points, but the thing about it that made me uncomfortable was the notion that one should be at war with yourself and work your way through the resistance. It always struck me that if you took the wrong message out of it that you'd be on an one way ticket to burnout central.

    But perhaps this is a good time to revisit it. Maybe new insight awaits!
  • Well, I think we kinda are at war with ourselves, in the sense that doing hard things is...hard.

    And it's hard not entirely because of external factors, but from the internal issues we also have to fight through. These issues manifest in different ways, writer's block, facebook procrastination, inability to finish a project, consuming habits, constant excuses...

    You can argue these are different things, sure. What Pressfield calls 'Resistance' is poetic license for "struggling against your own issues", whatever those may be.

    But I think it can be useful to think of it like that, as going to war with a dangerous enemy that knows you intimately. In the sense that it causes you to interrogate your own motives, be suspicious of temptation and diversion.

    What I'd caution you against here, specifically, and it's something I've fallen prey to myself, is doing stuff that feels tangentially productive, but isn't really. Especially when you're down about your project, doing stuff like blogging can give you the warm rush of productivity while also being a distraction.

    It's a more subtle form of diversion. You don't feel guilty like you do when you just blatantly waste time on Facebook, but is it really moving you closer to where you need to be?

    Is spending time writing about how to be a prominent creator a better way to spend your time than creating and finishing projects?

    I'm not saying that this path you're on is the wrong one, I'm just saying be cautious. I know how easy it is to slip, the insidious forms that procrastination can take. Especially since it can feel like a "new project", and new projects are intrinsically more exciting than trudging along on the thing you've been doing for years.

    Combined with the relief of focusing on something other than the cause of your anxiety, the temptation can be overwhelming.
    Thanked by 2TheFuntastic Tuism
  • My two cent solution, without the ideological warm up is below.

    You spent a lot of time on this project, even if you haven't been working on it the whole time, it has been your project for a few years and you are obviously emotionally and financially invested in this, to the point of needing to open up to such an extent to the public. Finish it, cut the feature list at what you have at present, only add features that are necessary for release, forget about any returns, call it a waste if you want, but finish and release it. As for the motivation you need, you don't need motivation when you are at this point. The project has turned into a mini-nightmare, I'm sure you can handle a month or two more of it, allocate an hour or two a day to this project and endure the torture for that time. You will get it done in that time if you stick to the most basic functionality that will make it releasable. Actual release is a joy for any developer, that's when the pain turns to joy...
    Thanked by 2Psyinx TheFuntastic
  • @critic made a valid point. There's always Cadence 2 to look forward to somewhere down the line :)
    Thanked by 2critic TheFuntastic
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    This discussion is deeply personal to me even though I'm not at the center of it.

    I place a lot of importance on @EvanGreenwood's posts because of who he is. I don't know all that much about the indie development landscape but I do know he is one of the prominent names because of his Broforce pedigree. From following his posts, I've gathered that he is very effective in what he does. He is pragmatic in his approach to building games and he is a very successful developer for it.

    However, I place even more importance on his posts because of the type of person he represents in my life. The type who seems to get it right and who doesn't seem to understand why I can't too. The type that don't understand why I can't just "stop it", "leave it", or "do it". I tend to idolize them as they possess something I so desperately want. And in as much I want to please them by giving them an answer, that answer never seems to be sufficient... I therefore do what @TheFuntastic does because I feel it's the only thing I can do... to own up and admit I'm fucking up. Yes, I'm doing it wrong. Yes, I'm not managing my time. Yes, I'm lying to myself (and later to the people around me).

    Yet still, there is this expectation... If you know this, why don't you change it? I have given you advice, why don't you use it? Well, there is nothing more to expect. That was it. If I figure it out, I will thank you for your advice. I will even admit you were right and I was wrong. But for the moment there is no magical order of words that will guarantee to bring me where you are. Even if you had your own struggles, it doesn't make any difference to mine. Please continue giving advice. Despite how it may appear, I want advice. I want to get better (I'm going to AMAZE this weekend shit scared to even call myself a hobbyist developer but I do it because I want to learn, to improve).

    But, please. Please do not have any expectations. It will be a terrible waste of goodwill. Stop it.


    Thanked by 1Tuism
  • Lots of talk of guilt and shame...guys, you have be kinder to yourselves.

    Most of us here are beginners. You can't beat yourself up if you don't quite hit it out of the park immediately.

    It's best, IMO, to go into this thing with the expectation that it's going to take years, you're going to make a lot of mistakes, you're going to fail repeatedly. Sometimes you'll make something that seems to have promise, but that promise won't be realized. A lot of times, you'll do work you think is great and the market will be indifferent.

    I get that it's disappointing, really, we all want to get 'there' fast. I'm in the same boat. But if you beat yourself into a pile of guilt and shame you'll rob yourself of the strength to keep going.

    Try to appreciate how far you've come and what you've achieved, even if you have further to go. Celebrate what you've got right, and how much you've learned. Be proud of the new scars you've picked up, they show that you're in the arena, in the fight, taking hits, getting tougher, stronger, better.

    Most people don't get any further than watching from the stands. You're already further than most people ever get.

    And try not to compare yourself to others too much. Envy is a poison. Compare yourself to yourself. Are you improving? Are you wiser?

    If this is what you're trying to do with your Creative Suck writing, @TheFuntastic, process your feelings and let go of the negative ones, well, then I wish you luck then. :)

    Processing those feelings publicly might be choosing hard mode, though. You can see it a bit even in this thread. Maybe turn off the comments on Medium, if that's an option. ;)
    Thanked by 2dammit TheFuntastic
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    Ah that comic was so lovely!

    Well, the second article is up an talks about "keeping yourself out of the arena becuase you're not ready".
    https://medium.com/creative-suck/are-you-sure-you-dont-just-want-to-be-famous-5cfddbbfc509#.kcgp70wqr

    @garethf - I do feel very vulnerable sharing this. It would be easy for someone to read it and go: "oh hey, look you haven't learnt anything. 15 years later you're still making the same mistakes. Maybe sit down and stay quiet". But according to Brene Brown upon which the above comic is based, shame flourishes on secrecy. It's by outing it and sharing our vulnerabilities that helps us connect and overcome it. That's the theory at least. We'll see how the experiment goes.
    Thanked by 2pieter garethf
  • I am a huge fan of Brene Brown (and Zen Pencils), so I couldn't help but share that.

    I can very strongly relate to what you're going through, at least in parts @thefuntastic. I was brought up in an environment focused on shame and I became severely perfectionistic because of it. And I don't mean the healthy kind of "yeah, I like things to be nice and finished." I mean tearing out pages in my note books because my hand writing wasn't neat enough - and these were books no one else would ever see. That's not healthy and it took me a long time to realise there would never be "perfect" because my core belief was simply that I was not "good enough". Deep down I was calculating that if I did things perfectly, then I would start to feel good enough. And, of course, feeling that way is intrinsically linked with feelings of shame.

    There were a lot of factors that helped me move away from those feelings. Getting out of toxic relationships, focusing on friendships that really supported me, accepting that I am the way I am (with room for improvement, but not "bad" for that) and learning to start being okay with "failure". It's normal to "fail." (And I'll add a caveat that I used to feel like negative feedback was a kind of failure, but I'm getting over that now too...but that's been it's own process ;) ) It's perfectly natural to not succeed at everything. And not being a rockstar is okay. Brene Brown talks a bit about "striving for the ordinary life." There's so much joy that can be found in being ordinary and we often miss this when we strive to be extraordinary.

    When I let go of the idea of being the best, or whatever idea I had floating around in my head, I could get excited about my actual life. Excited to work where I do. Excited about the projects we have. Excited about my little home, my furniture, my cat. My perfectly ordinary, non-famous future.

    I dunno, maybe I'm rambling a little here, but be kinder to yourself. I don't know if you have or haven't made a mistake. I'm not in your shoes. I don't know that I would have done things differently. I certainly couldn't have made Cadence, only you could, so that's already something that makes you extraordinary without trying.
    Thanked by 2garethf TheFuntastic
  • @TheFuntastic: I'm glad to see you're actively doing stuff and trying to work through this. I'm no expert, but that seems like a good sign. When I read Evan's post, I found I related to a lot of it; not because I consider it all the best advice for you (although I do agree with much of it), but because I consider you a friend and it also pains me to see you go through a tough time. It's especially painful because it feels like I could maybe help if I spoke up, but it's difficult, and staying quiet is much easier. Maybe I'm terribly wrong if I give advice? I really don't want to make things worse or try and impose myself on the situation. I'm not sure about this as the best platform for that discussion, but I read the post in the context of someone that cares a lot and wants to help. What I'm trying to say is: if it wasn't already obvious, you have a support network of people that care about you and would like to see you in a place where you're happier and more content with things <3
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    TheFuntastic said:
    That being said, do you really think admonishing me and reinforcing my shame is a constructive way to help me move forward and do something positive about it
    I'm really not sure what to do at this point. I love that this forum offers some emotional support for you (I hope it does, and it looks from the posters here like there's a lot of people who really care about you).

    Maybe my post was based on a bunch of faulty assumptions, so correct me if I'm wrong. It seems to me that when you've received a lot of support (like at Stugan) it hasn't brought the finish line for Cadence closer (even if it helped your productivity). Finding a way to finish Cadence seems to me to be the quickest way towards your happiness and producing rad games in the future.

    I certainly wasn't trying to reinforce your shame. Sorry that I did. I find it really difficult to talk plainly to you, and like @Nandrew intuited this resulted in the post being written more bluntly than it needed to be.

    One thing I've realized in the meantime is that I've never released a game that went beyond a month of development without some kind of producer enforcing a deadline upon me. Like you wrote, I find it hard to show things to the world that aren't in my eyes perfect and so I keep trying to improve the thing ad infinitum (and games are particularly easy to keep improving ad infinitum when compared to other media).

    In my case this person (or persons) was always someone who had mutual jeopardy with me should the project fail or go on too long. So it meant, even if I wasn't happy with it, the thing had to be released at some point or I'd be screwing this other person (or persons) over.

    I don't suppose there's a way to organize this? That there be anyone besides yourself who could benefit from Cadence's release AND be affected by Cadence lingering who could try hold you accountable to release Cadence?
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