EU Courts rule that you can resell downloaded software. And that means games.

edited in General
<font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; ">From </font><a href="http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/07/03/crikey-eu-rules-you-can-resell-downloaded-games/" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; ">Rock Paper Shotgun</a><font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2" style="font-size: 10pt; "> or alternatively </font><a href="http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/173513/Publishers_cannot_oppose_resale_of_digital_products_says_EU_court.php" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; ">Gamasutra</a><font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2" style="font-size: 10pt; ">, and now one from </font><a href="http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/07/top-eu-court-upholds-right-to-resell-downloaded-software/" style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; ">Ars</a><font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2" style="font-size: 10pt; "> (I recommend the Ars article, but feel free to read them all)</font><div><font size="2"><br></font></div><div><font size="2">For an analysis there is <a href="http://www.gamerlaw.co.uk/2012/07/legality-of-second-hand-sales-in-eu.html">Gamer/Law</a>, and the great post for LexAquilla below.<br></font><div style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; "><br></div><div style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; ">To quote a part of the ruling</div><div style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; "><br></div><div style="font-size: 10pt; "><font face="Tahoma"><span style="text-align: left; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); "><i>“The Court observes in particular that limiting the application of the principle of the exhaustion of the distribution right solely to copies of computer programs that are sold on a material medium would allow the copyright holder to control the resale of copies downloaded from the internet and to demand further remuneration on the occasion of each new sale, even though the first sale of the copy had already enabled the rightholder to obtain appropriate remuneration. Such a restriction of the resale of copies of computer programs downloaded from the internet would go beyond what is necessary to safeguard the specific subject-matter of the intellectual property concerned.”</i></span>
</font></div><div style="font-size: 10pt; "><font face="Tahoma"><br></font></div><div style="font-size: 10pt; "><font face="Tahoma">This would imply that people, currently just in the EU, will be able to resell downloaded games. The ruling did state that this was on software with an indefinite licence agreement so we might see games where we are only given rights to play for 5 years.</font></div><div style="font-size: 10pt; "><font face="Tahoma"><br></font></div><div style="font-size: 10pt; "><font face="Tahoma">My concerns as a developer are that:</font></div><div style="font-size: 10pt; "><font face="Tahoma"><br></font></div><div style="font-size: 10pt; "><font face="Tahoma">A) Games are international, digital ones especially. Games made in SA will end up in the EU and subject to this.</font></div><div style="font-size: 10pt; "><font face="Tahoma">B) The resale of games (both physical and digital) give money to the platform they are sold through, but not to the developer.</font></div><div style="font-size: 10pt; "><font face="Tahoma"><br></font></div><div style="font-size: 10pt; "><font face="Tahoma">[Edit Log: #1 Updated with link to Ars article. #2 Analysis from Gamer/Law]</font></div></div>

Comments

  • <blockquote style="font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; line-height: normal; "><em style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; border: 0px; outline: 0px; font-style: oblique; font-size: 14px; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; vertical-align: baseline; text-align: left; color: rgb(29, 29, 29); line-height: 18px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); ">"would allow the copyright holder to control the resale of copies downloaded from the internet"</em></p></div></blockquote>
    Does this not mean owning the copyright mean you control the resale still? Or am I missing something?
  • @edg3, I think that paragraph says something along the lines that the rule applies to all software, not just those distributed on physical mediums. But I could be wrong, maybe our local legal eagles can help us out.<br><br>Whats more interesting to me is this:<br><i><br>"But fascinatingly, it adds, “However, the directive authorises any
    reproduction that is necessary for the use of the computer program by
    the lawful acquirer in accordance with its intended purpose."<br><br></i>Does that actually mean you are not allowed to put in some kind of copy protection? <br>
  • <font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">@edg3 basically what Rigormortis said. I will add in my simplest explanation possible: if you own a licence to software — be it physical or digital — you have the right to sell that licence to another party.</font><div><font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2"><br></font></div><div><font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">@Rigormortis I do not believe that it would imply you cannot put copy protection on the software, but the holder of the licence is allowed to break copy protection to run the software; without fear of repercussions from the copyright holder.</font></div>
  • edited
    I'm busy reading the actual judgement. Full report to follow<div><br></div><div><The Follow Up></div><div><span style="font-size: 10pt; ">Alright, this is quite an interesting case.  Before my full comment, let’s just clarify
    what the law says.</span></div><div>

    <p class="MsoNormal">One aspect of copyright law is that as the copyright owner
    you have the right to control who sells your works to the public. Basically
    this is to ensure that the copyright owner gets fairly remunerated for their
    work. However the right is exhausted after the first sale of a *specific* good.
    </p>

    <p class="MsoNormal">For example, the Authors of books can control where their
    books are sold, but they cannot prevent people, who legitimately purchased a
    book, from selling the book again to someone else. Furthermore the Author isn’t
    entitled to any of the profits from the second sale (the reasoning is, the
    Author has already been compensated for the sale *of that specific book*. This
    is why second hand book stores are legal. </p>

    <p class="MsoNormal">Another important point is that the right is only exhausted if
    the specific work is sold (i.e. ownership of the specific good is transferred).
    It is important to note, that even if a good is sold, the copyright owner doesn’t
    lose their copyrights in the good sold.</p>

    <p class="MsoNormal">Based on this, crafty lawyer types have structured the “sale”
    agreements of software so that the software is never “sold” but is instead “rented”
    (or as we would call it “licensed”) to end users. Technically this means that
    if you bought a CD with software on you couldn’t sell it on to other people.
    People got all uppity at this and eventually laws where edited or passed so
    that if software was sold on a physical medium (like a CD or DVD) then the
    purchaser would be allowed to sell on the physical medium, provided they
    uninstalled the software and passed along any licence keys when they sold the
    product. </p>

    <p class="MsoNormal">Basically what this ruling has said is that even if you
    download your software, you are allowed to transfer it, provided of course that
    you “bought” it and are not renting it (and you delete the copy you downloaded,
    and transfer any licence keys to the new user). </p>

    <p class="MsoNormal">What is also of interest is that this case will have an
    effect on what is considered “software as a service” and “licensing”. One of Oracles
    arguments was that since the software was not sold, but licensed, their right
    to limit resale was still intact. The court disagreed with this because the
    licence Oracle granted to its end users was “perpetual” (it lasted for ever).
    The court said that if you ‘rent’ something to someone forever, for a fee (It
    is not stated in the case, but I assume it was a once off fee), you have
    essentially sold it to them. If it looks like a duck, and sounds like a duck,
    it is probably a duck. Because Oracle had “sold” the software, the clause in
    the licence that made it non-transferable was deemed unlawful and excluded.</p><p class="MsoNormal">Now, this ruling only applies to EU, and also important to note is that in the US they have gone the otherway (Copyright owners CAN limit the resale of downloaded software). It is likely the SA courts would follow the EU since much of our law is based on their system.</p><p class="MsoNormal">What this means is that we will likely see more "subscription" games being developed, especially if the big developers are hell0bent on preventing second hand sales. Either that or people will start seeing limited time licences that a renewable on a yearly basis (or some other time period).</p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; ">In terms of the questions then:</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; "> @edg3 as @Karuji and @Rigormortis have said, it doesn't matter how you "acquired" your legitimate copy, if you've been sold the licence you can resell it.</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 10pt; ">@Rigormortis As I read the judgement the court is actually encouraging copy protection (the reason being the court states this will probably be the only way one can ensure that when the licence is sold, the seller doesn't keep a copy for himself and retain use of the good he "sold") </span></p></div>
  • <p>I was just wondering about the ethics of reselling, whether it's a book or software. It seems fine to me to resell something that's a tool (like a dictionary, or a wordprocessing app, Oracle-type stuff) and forfeit its use.</p><p>But a creative work, like a novel or a video game, seems like a different kind of thing to me, where it's not so much the medium or software itself that's being sold, so much as the experience. Granted, many games have unlimited experiences (like multiplayer, procedural), but many others are very intimately tied to a story, like a novel. If you've read the novel once, and know the story, aren't you pretty much done with the thing? You've gotten the experience, which has (hopefully) enriched your life somehow, and you no longer need the physical thing any more.</p><p>Would this not kill off whole genres of games, not because of peoples' tastes changing or anything, but because of a law? It seems sad that games that pretty much are only good for one play-through (most story-driven ones I guess, many puzzle games too I imagine) might no longer be feasible.</p><p>Resale hasn't stopped books from selling, I guess, but I think games are much riskier to make. Thoughts?</p>
  • <font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">@LexAquilla thanks for that analysis. I found another one from </font><a href="http://www.gamerlaw.co.uk/2012/07/legality-of-second-hand-sales-in-eu.html" style="font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; ">Gamer/Law</a><font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">.</font><div style="font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; "><br></div><div style="font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; ">@Elyaradine I'm in complete agreement. A book takes an author and a handful of people to make. A game can take three hundred people and tens of millions of dollars to make.</div><div style="font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; "><br></div><div style="font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; ">I really don't like the ethics of second hand sales since as a person you gain the experience, but the people who put the effort into crafting that experience gain nothing in return. To me it is much like piracy in that the author gains nothing from their work, and I think second hand is even worse because people are paying for it. To further stretch this point I don't even like it when publishers profit from works of defunct studios.</div><div style="font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; "><br></div><div><font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">As Elyaradine pointed out creative works are different from software. If I sell my Win7 disks and licence (and just use the OSX on my laptop) I have lost the functionality of Win7. Win7 is about functionality; games are about experience. (Pun not intended)</font></div>
  • Right, so I don't have so much experience in game development(or the industry) as most of the people on here. In fact, I have none. That being said, I do not think that second hand sales are necessarily a bad thing. I understand what @Elyardine and @Karuji are saying, and to some extent I agree.<br><br>The thing is that I personally could never understand why I wasn't allowed to sell my copy of some kind of software to another person. I am one of the few people that have actually read some EULA's and the licensing part of it has always bugged me. I always felt that games should be treated like books in that regard, ie that the person who owns the game should be allowed to sell it again.<br><br>I don't have the foresight to even try to guess how this will affect the industry, but I do believe that people that buy creative works are the sort that kind of holds on to them for the reminder of the experience so I dont think resales will go through the roof.<br><br>I am concerned about what @Karuji said about the amount of resources going into games vs books. Yay for Indie devs I guess?<br><br>And thanks to @LexAquilla for the helpful review/breakdown.<br>
  • There is definitely a dichotomy about this issue. On one had, as a user now owns the software they buy - they should have the right to resell it. This is the whole philosophical argument that 'information wants to be free'. I think it's slightly unfair to put books, games and other software in different categories. Each of them can be made by an individual - so they are all affected equally by what happens to their creations after the first sale. <br><br>However, it obviously becomes a problem when the software is completely digital. If there is no way to manage the resale - like with Steam keys- then the buyer may just keep the software and just replicate it. Frankly, without resale laws, piracy is going to run rampant. I foresee that without management of resales, this decision could hurt independent developers pretty badly (in this case I mean developers who don't use Online publishing schemes such as Steam or Origin) because of piracy.<br><br>On the other hand, most authors have given up attempting to manage second hand sales - it is just highly difficult. With digital, however, each piece of software has the potential to be tracked from user to user over its life span. There could be laws put into place that ensure digital secondhand sales do contribute to the creator themselves. Author Added Tax (AAT) perhaps ;) ?<br>
  • <font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">@Rigormortis and @Bensonance to put it this way. I am not against second hand sails. If person A sells their game, book, CD, DVD or whatever else to person B and person B is introduced to new media that is cool. I regularly lend books to friends because I tell them that this is a great author, and I hope they will buy more works of that author.</font><div style="font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; "><br></div><div style="font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; ">What I do not condone is if person A sells their game to organization X. Organization X adds $10 and then sells that on to person B. In this manner there is profit being made, and the creator of the media is not benefiting from it.</div><div style="font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; "><br></div><div style="font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; ">But! There is an exception. If the media is no longer available through the normal purchase then it is welcome to see orphaned media being kept alive.</div><div style="font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; "><br></div><div style="font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; "><hr><br></div><div style="font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; ">The reason that this law scares me is that if you can resell your Steam games it would be terrible.</div><div style="font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; "><br></div><div><font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">The obvious argument is that I can resell a game I bought on special at a higher price. But that is not what worries me. I have bought more games on Steam than I ever have, and that is because Steam is convenient. That same convenience with reselling games would lead to a dramatic drop in income from game developers. </font></div><div><font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2"><br></font></div><div><font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">With non digital media the process of reselling is a lot less convenient. You have to find a store, go there, negotiate a price. And in the worst-for-the-consumer scenario you <i>only</i> get a credit at <i>that</i> store. Leaving organization X to make more money while the creators get none.</font></div><div><br></div><div><font face="Arial, Verdana" size="2">As an aside indie dev and still be costly. If you have 3 people working on a project at 15k a month, and it takes 3 years for the project to get done. That is a lot of money. Admittedly I'm pulling numbers from my imagination there. But it's not that unreasonable given that my friends who finished university with a BSc Comp Sci earned 20k+ right after graduation.</font></div><div style="font-family: Arial, Verdana; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; "><br></div>
  • @Karuji, so let's say I sell my book to a seconhand book seller or pawn shop or whatever you may define as an orginazation and that organization sells it for a profit. Would that be a problem for you as well?<br><br>If any goods seller, be it books or computer parts or nice flaxen linen, calculates it's profit/income on the amount of resales between customers after the initial sale I don't think they would last very long. As long as there is only one person using said product at a time I do not see a major problem with it. I understand what you are saying about the creator of the media not benefiting from it, but I do not see why the creator should benefit any more past the initial sale.<br><br>I agree with you that the fact that the media is digital is problematic. And this would very likely result in a drop in sales. Specifially for games like @elyardine mentioned where it is supposed to be a one time experience you're trying to sell.<span class="Author"></span> Unfortunenatly I have no idea how to handle that.<br>
  • @Rigormortis I believe you already know the answer to your question since it has to do with the point Elyaradine has raised.<div><br></div><div>So I'll ask you why do you think I find it okay to resell flaxen linen, but not a book.</div><div><br></div><div>---</div><div><br></div><div>As a fun side little note computer stores make most of their money off repairs. The only time they make money of resale parts is RAM that is no longer produced. And they normally get that when people drop off old computers to be disposed of ;)</div>
  • @Karuji so I know the answer is because of the whole experience thing. And I get that in a worst case scenario for the author of the book(or game) he/she would only sell one copy and through resales every person on the planet will get the experience and he/she would only see one sale even though everyone has had the experience.<br><br>I don't know, this issue confuses me. On the one side I totally agree with the functional vs experience argument. But on the other side it feels to me that once I bought something I should own it, even if it is a creative work. If I wish to sell(or lend) it to another person there shouldn't be something that prevents me from selling "my" stuff.<br><br>I get that it's bad for developers, but it's good for the consumers which might lead them to buy more games? I guess I'll just have to wait and see how this affects the industry?
  • @Rigormortis you hit the nail of the head quite aptly  :)<div><br></div><div>The reason why selling lending, and even to some extent pirating, is great is that it creates the potential for new consumers. Would I buy the amount of music or games I do now had I not been exposed to it when I was younger, through piracy, I doubt I would.</div><div><br></div><div>I'm all for consumer rights. I hope nothing I've said would indicate otherwise.</div><div><br></div><div>What I don't like is a corporation that tries to use second hand sales to make profits. Gamestop (in the US) is really terrible. From what I have read they go so far as to place used games with the new ones, and then place the used in front so that people are more likely to buy used: which is pure profit for them and none for the people who made the game.</div><div><br></div><div>Also some prices if you buy a $60 game from the, you can trade that game in for $15-18, and they will sell that game for $55. They also allow you to trade it in for $24 if you use that credit to immediately but other used games from them.</div><div><br></div><div>So I guess organization X now has a name. And I hope you can see why I'm opposed to it since both consumers and creators are hurt by this second hand process.</div>
  • It seems to me that you guys have moved on to debating the concept of perceived value. Which is definitely a big thing for game designers and the business of game development, but probably not overly legally definable ;)<br><br>I want someone to buy my game because they perceive value in owning it, not just playing it. I want others to perceive that same value and want to hold that value themselves too. If my goal as a designer is creating value instead of chasing profits: I don't want to clone games because I'm not defining new value there, I'm exploiting someone else's lack of value maximisation; I don't mind resales because hopefully I'm making the simple act of owning the game valuable (leaving out re-plays); I don't mind piracy because I know that a significant chunk of the value of the game is tied to owning it, so experiencing it will push pirates to own it themselves...<br><br>It's like wanting to own a specific copy of a book just because you feel better knowing that you have it. Even if you've read it before. Digital ownership is tricky, but it's something that we're getting better at addressing as a culture. I do think that legally we're playing catch up to a point that hasn't been completely defined yet (the law is actually responding to changes very fast - historically speaking - here, so fast that it doesn't have a definite goal state to aim for), but digitally owning something should mean a few things: Being able to retrieve your copy from anywhere, being able to save progress across multiple devices, etc. It's those things that should be transferred when a digital thing is re-sold. Making sure that happens and people don't just copy everything and pass it around is hard. Either you need crazy DRM or you need an actual value in people's heads associated with the act of ownership.<br>
    Thanked by 1Karuji
  • Well, basically @dislekcia said a lot of what I fell about the subject in a way that sounds a lot better than I would have explained it. So thanks for that :)

    There is still something bugging me though. @Karuji, I understand that you do not condone the exploitation that orgination x is using to make a (hefty) profit. What I'm asking is how does that directly affect the developer? The way I see it is that the developers will have some approximation of how many games they will sell and have to price the game accordingly. If they sell less than they predict that will be bad of course, but with something like this their predictions should become lower than before. Or am I missing something?

    I just want to add that the digital resales will make the problem far worse than if it were not digital because of the ease with which it can be done. Like @Karuji mentioned earlier.
  • @dislekcia great post! I kind of avoided looking at the issue from the perspective of being a dev; I'm looking at things as a betenticled business man, but as far as solutions go you gave us the best one, very eloquently.

    @Rigormortis I'm going to go with the worst case scenario I can think of here. There is developer McAwesome they make an Indie game which is a single play experience which lasts about six hours. McAwesome's in order to break even on their game McAwesome need to sell 50 000 units. On opening sales day they sell 10 000 units, which is great. Game sales, generally, following a decreasing exponential curve with regards to sales. So doing the math it looks like McAwesome are going to sell 75 000 units in their opening week.

    One month after launch they have only sold 35 000 units. Since it was a digital game, and after 6 hours of play the player could sell the game back, and then the new purchasers bought the cheaper second hand digital game McAwesome never recoup their losses.

    I know there is quite some hyperbole, imagination, and thumb suck number here, but like I said this is a worst case scenario.

    But as I said at the beginning of this post @dislekcia gave a very good solution to the problem
  • Just to add to this: Extra Credits: digital resale is on this exact topic.
  • I've got an example for you:

    I have a blizzard battle.net account with 2x copies of World of warcraft: Cataclysm, 1x copy of Starcraft 2 and 1x copy of Diablo 3 linked to it. All on EU.

    Now, according to this ruling I have the right to sell anyone of these games to someone else.

    Does this now mean Blizzard has to facilitate the option of doing so? Currently the only "black market" way of doing so was to sell the whole battle.net account, however this being legal now, aren't they now legally bound to allow us remove said game from account and remove the bound CD-key to be sold to someone else?

    Can you think of the amount of red tape and paper work this will generate for a company with 10million copies sold of each of those game?

    Just something i thought of the other day when first reading this ruling in the news.
  • Well like was said in the EC video, there is no rulings in the law that says they have to help you sell your games, only that they need to give the facility for it to be possible (like the removal of a key and giving it to someone else is a good example).
  • @Actrox and @edg3

    Two important things to consider:

    1) The judgement dealt with actual software as opposed to games, while it may seem minor, this is actually an important detail. There is a lot of room to argue that this judgement doesn't apply to games at all.

    2) The judgement doesn't even go as far as saying that need provide facilities to enable you to sell games, all it says is that they cannot STOP you from selling them, if you decided to do so.
  • There's the legality of selling games 2nd hand, then there's the practicality. Unless the judge mandates that all games created must conform to standards of resale-ability (which has not happened, from all the comments here), games will live on as its creators has enabled/disabled it to be so.

    Hellish DRMs only inspire more badass hackers. Creating true (perceived) value (oxymoron) for people is the only way to get them to actually willingly pay for something - first hand, second hand or otherwise.

    The reason that Apple's App Store works is a combination of good DRM (note that good means effective AND simple. Lots of "good" DRMs make the buyers hate it which means it drives people to pirate), good price point, and brand leverage through rigorous reputation maintenance. Plus there is value in going legit through the provision of services (Game Center, kind of), plus whatever more the game developers bring to the table (exclusive content, interaction, community).

    To me it's really not about the legality but the mindset - both of the producers and the consumers. If it's hated, it'll get pirated. Building affinity with the people who will enjoy your product is the ultimate copy protection.
    Thanked by 1Karuji
  • Firstly I am coming to believe that @Tuism is wise beyond his years. And that with a name like Tuism there might soon be some kind of new religion about.

    I think Steam is somewhat better than iOS since it has a lack of race to the bottom pricing which, I believe, is prevalent on iOS.

    Steam does have really nice discounts which increase the amount of people who will buy the game.

    @Actrox as LexAquilla said the ruling was for software not games. If I remember what Lex has said before games in SA are closer to movies than software, as far as the law is concerned.

    Also selling one's battle.net account is a violation of the Blizz ToS which will lead to the account being deleted.
  • If I could sell my Diablo 3 without nuking my SC2 account, I totally fucking would.
  • @Karuji Thanks for that, er :) I'm not a youngster (by the average around here) and I certainly don't think my views are cultish :)

    "I think Steam is somewhat better than iOS since it has a lack of race to the bottom pricing which, I believe, is prevalent on iOS.

    Steam does have really nice discounts which increase the amount of people who will buy the game."

    I see these two statements as being very contradictory. You just said that iOS is inferior for being a cheap platform, and that Steam is superior for offering discounts, as if AppStore doesn't do discounts. Fact is that daily there are discounts running on it. Hourly, in fact.

    Hunh? :)

    (And not having lower prices is a dev-side advantage not a consumer side advantage, remember I was talking about building affinity with consumers, and price friendliness is one of those points. AppStore moves more for cheaper - not less for more. Which one's better? It depends on the product. Not the platform.)

    And to compare Steam and iOS is probably not going to work, as the market they cater for are quite different - the niche PC gamer market vs the popular general market. Remember that the AppStore wasn't even focussed on games until recently. It was created not to serve up games but to serve up content. That, combined with Apple's active drive to be the most popular mobile device ever by usability, ease and control, means that it did not appeal to the "core" gamers, which Steam does. The reach and depth are just too different between the two platforms.
  • @dislekcia I still have no idea why you bought the game. You knew how bad the game was going to be, and you said you were boycotting it for well over a year :P

    @Tuism I was referencing to Tuism being rather similar, in appearance, to Taoism. So the nature of you being sagical (why is that not an actual word) with the name similarity just struck me as humorous.

    Onto the actual discussion. I do not believe that it is contradictory, because Steam Sales and $0.99 apps function very differently. Steam Sales lower the pricing allowing people who wouldn't pay $X for a game to pay $X/2 or whatever the price it. Where the $0.99 is simply a low bar to entry in the hope that more people pick up the app.

    As far as consumer side advantage. Well I know I have more stuff on Steam as opposed to 'Droid, and that's including free apps and the like. So as a consumer I find Steam more useful.

    You made a really good point about the difference of the ecosystem between mobile, and PC. So I am going to have to read up about the about that.
  • Your statement regarding app prices tells me you're really not familiar with app store pricing :) not every app is 99c, and those who are, are that for reasons other than they have to be. Many quality games are sold for ranges $3 to $10. Quality productions, big names, big budgets still hold high price points. But they all run sales too, occasionally dropping to get eyeballs to their product. The sale community is VERY active on iOS. Apps that are permanently 99 are either pushing massive quantity in conjunction with marketing, are of lower production value, or simply have no means of marketing so entice by price.

    Also, you have more stuff on steam than droid cos droid ecosystem is less profitable (fragmentation, piratability), which causes less less dev participation, which causes less quality and quantity. Which causes you to have less stuff cos you like good stuff (well, I do, I'm just assuming here now :p)
  • I am actually well aware that not everything on the store is $0.99 I know Infinity Blade was $8 at launch. I've done a lot of work on iPads ;) I just use 'Droid in my daily life so I am more familiar with it. And I normally purchase my apps with my average price being about $3.50 so I am well aware not everything is $0.99.

    I've also had Steam since 2006 and a 'Droid since 2011 so that miiiiight be a factor there ;)

    Fragmentation and piratability are factors. And the fact that a sizeable portion of Android users are on is honestly scary. On the other hand we have Humble Android bundle.

    So I have to ask you, since you are highly familiar with the iOS app ecosystem, what do you think would happen if you could resell Apps on iOS? (Yay for swinging the thread around to being back on topic.)
  • @karuji said:
    @dislekcia I still have no idea why you bought the game. You knew how bad the game was going to be, and you said you were boycotting it for well over a year :P
    I fell for the hype. And the hope.
  • Ok my mistake, I made assumptions from my limited info. But I do stand by my points :)

    So I'm not going to go on more of a tangent with the ios/droid versus thing :P

    As for the iOS app resale conversation - remember the ruling is that resale is ALLOWED, and not forced to be facilitated. So... what does it mean for iOS apps to be resellable? It's actually a much bigger change than that what if question.

    First apple will have to WANT TO let people resell to build it into the appstore. Then there's the question of what prices of resale are set at - if it's user set or set by Apple. Then after all that will the market start to respond - buying things first or second hand. Then after that will devs start to respond by making games desireable first hand - just like the console dev houses including unique once-off codes in their games on the shelves. Maybe there are other methods to do that with on the all-digital distrubution channel, but the principle would remain the same.

    But I don't see that it'll clear the first couple of steps from Apple at all so there's no point talking about that :)
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