[Event] Cape Town Community Night - 29th October 2014

edited in Events
When: 18:30 until around 21:30, Wednesday 29th October

Where: City Varsity new campus, 18 Roeland Street, Cape Town.
"For folks struggling to find City Varsity on Google Maps, it's near the bottom of Roeland Street close to parliament and in the building that used to house Charly's Bakery.

Charly's is still visible on Street View next to the panel shop if you type in 8 Roeland Street (the nearest approximation) and go down to Street View: https://goo.gl/maps/KvUhR "

Take note, there will be no free, provided food at this venue!

If you have a demo you want played, bring a station on which people can play it, and set it up before the meetup begins!

Agenda:
- 6:30 - 7:00 - Meet and greet
- Rapid fire intros (10 min)
- Community News (5 min)
- [Unconfirmed] Sarah and Colin Northway ~ 5 mins (+question time)
- [Unconfirmed] Kelly Wallick ~ 5 mins (+question time)
- Gamergate Open Floor discussion - @dammit ~30 mins

- Focused Feedback (10 min slots) x3
- 6x Mass Production Tutorials
- Merghezerds
- @BlackShipsFilltheSky game demo

- Open Demo Floor

This event happens monthly, is free to attend, and anyone may speak at the meetup - just comment beneath to let us know! This is for anyone and everyone interested in making games of any shape, size or type. Come join us!

Test games! Talk games! Make games!

Indicate your attendance on the Facebook event !

Comments

  • Hey, I've been wanting to deliver a talk for some time on delivering game critique to balance effectiveness, compassion and motivation (with thanks to Andy Walsh, who dedicated an excellent section to it in his writing workshop).

    The main angle is balancing morale against the value of the feedback -- to be gracious without tiptoeing or empty backpatting.
  • Hi. I'd like to do a quick talk about my company, Formula D, our current game design project and our non-profit initiative the "Play to Learn Lab" where we're using games for education.
  • I'm asking Colin and Sarah Northway (www.northwaygames.com) to give a quick talk, if we're really lucky we might be able to get Kelly Wallick (www.indiemegabooth.com) to say a few things as well :)
  • edited
    Once again, I'm proposing a gamergate open floor discussion. I had some feedback last month that people do want to have this discussion and the continued popularity of the thread on this forum as well as the un-ending gamergate campaign online, I feel it's still a valid conversation to have.

    Also, FB event link please?
  • I'll grab a focus feedback slot for 6x Mass Production('s new tutorials)
  • Where did all this content come from -_-.

    Okay, @Nandrew you're down.

    @MNRosa How long do you need for your talk? 10 mins?

    @dislekcia Have you confirmed both/either/all of our esteemed guests' attendance? :)

    @dammit I agree the discussion needs to be had, how long do you need? It looks like time will be tight this month.

    @raxter Cooooooool.
  • Months go by so fast :D
  • Please can someone record the guest talks and share on the MGSA YouTube channel?
  • If there is time I would like to do a demo/feedback session on Mehrgehrzerds.
    Once again, I'm proposing a gamergate open floor discussion.
    I appreciate the notion but I just honestly feel there is nothing productive that will come from a discussion of GamerGate. Saying "harassment is bad mkay" doesn't advance anything, and those who are interested can go read the 20 pages worth on discussion on this forum.

    Thanked by 1Boysano
  • edited
    If there's time, I'd like to do a demo and get some feedback on a prototype of mine (that I did with @Aequitas, and Dawid Strauss and @Bevis and Deon Van Heerden)

    I think Mehrgehrzerds needs the feedback more though. I'd happily do a really short demo if that's all that's available.
  • raithza said:
    Once again, I'm proposing a gamergate open floor discussion.
    I appreciate the notion but I just honestly feel there is nothing productive that will come from a discussion of GamerGate. Saying "harassment is bad mkay" doesn't advance anything, and those who are interested can go read the 20 pages worth on discussion on this forum.

    Actually, that's not the discussion I want to have. I want to have a discussion about what we, as indie developers in SA, should be doing in reaction to what is happening. There are a lot of different opinions on the subject and bringing everyone's voices to the floor would be worthwhile, in my opinion.

  • edited
    dammit said:
    Actually, that's not the discussion I want to have. I want to have a discussion about what we, as indie developers in SA, should be doing in reaction to what is happening.
    I'd rather spend that time and energy talking about how we can grow the gaming industry in SA as a whole. Let's take some of the good observations (about culture, authority, viral ideas, etc) from that fiasco, and figure out how to best implement those learnings here. Leave the drama on their shores.
  • @dislekcia Have you confirmed both/either/all of our esteemed guests' attendance? :)
    Kelly was keen, Colin and Sarah should make it, but I don't know about talking... You should poke @Aequitas about it, he'll be lifting them seeing as I'm out of the country ;)
    wogan said:
    dammit said:
    Actually, that's not the discussion I want to have. I want to have a discussion about what we, as indie developers in SA, should be doing in reaction to what is happening.
    I'd rather spend that time and energy talking about how we can grow the gaming industry in SA as a whole. Let's take some of the good observations (about culture, authority, viral ideas, etc) from that fiasco, and figure out how to best implement those learnings here. Leave the drama on their shores.
    I don't see why the discussion you're proposing can't be had on these forums, @Wogan. Meanwhile we've seen exactly why the discussions @Dammit's proposing is better to have in real life where actual empathy is easier to establish and unreasonable people can get feedback on their actions faster instead of spiraling into worse behavior.

    Even then, why does one topic have to supplant another? Just propose your topic and people can vote to have that if they want it, we have lots of meetups, there's no limitation to what we can talk about. You don't have to defeat another suggestion for a topic, please don't make this an either/or situation when it isn't one.
  • edited
    dislekcia said:
    Even then, why does one topic have to supplant another? Just propose your topic and people can vote to have that if they want it, we have lots of meetups, there's no limitation to what we can talk about. You don't have to defeat another suggestion for a topic, please don't make this an either/or situation when it isn't one.
    I think you're misunderstanding my intention here. I'm all for a discussion about GamerGate - I'm just not down for a discussion that'll devolve into side-taking and name-calling and general ill will, and there's been some of that on the forums. It's a hugely polarizing issue, and I think it should just be clear up front what the intended outcome of that conversation should be.

    If the plan is to just open the floor for undirected, open comment, then that's fine, but I won't be participating. I know that @dammit's already stated she wants to have a discussion about how SA indie devs should react, but as we've seen on these very forums, those reactions can be varied and opposing. If the stated outcome was something specific (for instance, what to watch out for to prevent gender stereotyping, or how to reach out to new audiences, or how to design socially-conscious narrative), I feel it would be a lot more focused and productive.
  • edited
    I've previously expressed reservation about GamerGame at a meetup. Tragically it's gotten very real for many women and seemingly isn't going away, so as a community of game developers not addressing the topic could even been seen as irresponsible.

    But I rile at the thought of an open floor discussion. It's ideological topic and anyone with an opinion has long since decided what they think. Also, "unreasonable people getting feedback on their actions faster instead of spiraling into worse behavior" - in my experience that causes people to double down and entrench their ideology because it's under treat.

    But as @dammit may or may not be alluding to, there are other things around GG that may be worth talking about. Things like how communities and ideologies form. Why people opinions are so difficult to change ( as wonderfully explored here). How empathy fails online. How internet figures are singled out (This is Phil Fish). How some women have experienced very real abuse in real life and if there is anyway to avoid the actions of radicals? Really just anything besides GamerGate itself, because that a thoroughly done topic.
    Thanked by 2Squidcor Boysano
  • ...there are other things around GG that may be worth talking about.
    +1 - If anything, this drama has thrown into sharp focus the distance that games still have to go, and how much more aware we can all be when it comes to creating them.
    Really just anything besides GamerGate itself, because that a thoroughly done topic.
    +10000000
  • edited
    To be clear, I do not want to discuss GamerGate in the sense of what it is. I think we all know what happened and if you don't, there are a bazillion articles you can find online to fill your time with reading to find all the various points of view.

    My thought is that the conversation around GamerGate needs to change. Instead of discussing what it is, who did what, when, where, why etc, the conversation needs to be moved towards positively building games in future. We need to stop talking as if white male teenager is the default gamer and start examining why we think a meetup that is 90% white males is normal. We need to be challenging ourselves and becoming uncomfortable to be able to change the industry. And we can start by talking about these things with each other online and off.

    And, the only way that conversation starts happening is by the 90% white males changing what they talk about. That's you guys. It's not me. I cannot actually make change because I am, by nature, not part of the default. This makes it even harder for me to keep bringing up the topic and suggesting this discussion be had because if it makes you uncomfortable, imagine how uncomfortable I feel?

    Edit: So the point of the open floor discussion is to ask you - as the prominent and representative indie game devs from Cape Town - how we are going to do this. What is our action plan going forward? Can we agree on what should be done?
  • @dammit 100% with you there - that's a conversation I'd much rather have myself, too. Leave the drama online ;)
  • I'm worried the open discussion might go on for a while since there's no allotted time for it, should/could we move the demo slots to before that perhaps?
  • Following what @raxter said, will there still be time allotted afterwards to mingle/show off games that are not suitable to a Feedback Friday slot?
  • I've taken this to the committee for discussion. Report back soon.

    *Mysterious hand waving*
  • Well, whatever happens I am going to be there early to test with individual people so come find me if you'd like to try out the new version!

    Especially if you've not played games like SpaceChem and other "puzzle games for engineers", but anyone really. I really need to battle test these tutorials with as wide a range of people before I go too far down the level design rabbit hole :p

    Also, anyone know if the projector takes HDMI? Or if I'll need a converter, or to loan a laptop with VGA/DVI?
  • Oh! That reminds me. I'll be bringing Worst Warriors this week and setting that up early before the meetup if anyone wants to give it a go. It's a lot prettier than it was the last time it saw a MGSA meetup (before AMAZE).
  • Ooh this meetup is starting to sound real good ..
  • So what exactly will the Northways and Kelly Wallick be talking about?
  • They might just be visiting without a talk this month :p
  • They did say they'll give short talks, no idea about topics though.
  • *Waves hands mysteriously*

    Okay - so I've spoken to a couple of people and what we'll do it postpone Marco and Rodain's talks until next month (spoken to them both already). Both the Northways and Kelly Wallick will be speaking (just 5 mins or so each).

    We postponed the talks just so we can give everyone a good chance to ask our foreign guests questions, in addition to allowing the roundtable discussion some time, while still enabling the evening to round off with some lovely focused feedback slots :).
    Thanked by 1Boysano
  • Anyone going to grab food before the meetup?
  • Some of us are meeting at the ramen place above lefties around the corner from City Varsity.
  • I went to the wrong place.. will be there soon :(
  • This was a really enjoyable meetup. Congrats to @dammit on moderating the GamerGate discussion.
  • This was a really enjoyable meetup. Congrats to @dammit on moderating the GamerGate discussion.
    Did you guys come up with some good ideas / conclusion?
  • :) Thanks to everyone who participated in last night's discussion. I think we raised a lot of interesting ideas and we certainly touched on a lot of good talking points.

    The questions that were posed during the discussion (as I recall them):
    1. Does the community have a unified stance on the gamergate issue and do we want to make any sort of public statement in this regard?
    2. How do we make our community feel like a safe space for under-represented groups to join?
    3. Is it fair to ask white males to make games about non-white male characters?
    4. How do we actively challenge ourselves in our game design?


    Some of the thoughts on these questions:
    1. No clear answer on this one - and in fact this wasn't really given much attention overall.
    2. Overall, I think the general gist here was that talking about these issues is a starting point. We've also started the bursary programme and we are ultimately friendly people. Having more discussions about what we represent in games and also making necessary changes to our games (like Desktop Dungeons did for their female representation) will have a slow trickle effect. We also agreed to look into opportunities for volunteering and outreach.
    3. Yes. While no one is being forced in any way to make a game other than the one they want to make, the community generally felt that challenging oneself to make something different or at least question design choices (why is the lead character a guy when it's just a person in a robot?) is a very important starting point and also offers the opportunity to create games that stand out. Being different from the AAA title cliches is what makes being indie cool and is our unique angle as indie developers. It's also not impossible for any person to put themselves in the shoes of someone else - we're all a pretty creative bunch, after all :)
    4. The idea was put forward to have a "minority jam" (which I realise this morning is a terrible name since in South Africa, whites are the minority, and females are hardly a minority population :P ) or an "empathy jam" where the rules of the game jam are that you have to go out of your game design comfort zone. Final wrap-up concluded with "let's put a pin in this idea".

    I probably missed some things, so please feel free to add to this list for those who were not there.

    Ultimately, I want to keep having these kinds of conversations as an ongoing effort for us all to challenge ourselves in our game designs. As I mentioned last night, I've been shocked to realise that in every game I've ever made, all the characters are male (majority white - but a few green ones too) so I am hardly pointing fingers here without acknowledging that this is a problem that we're all affected by.

    Thanked by 1hermantulleken
  • @dammit If I can offer my opinion? I would have offered these up last night, except that I wasn't actually there, mainly because people here seem to completely misinterpret what I mean when I say things :|

    1. I reckon it's fine if that's postponed - that energy would be better spent on the rest

    2. This is tricky at best. If you deliberately make an effort to include "minorities" (in the sense of, minorities in the field of SA game dev, not the general SA population), then it can seem a bit patronising (or end up a political firestorm of its own). But if you do nothing, then you seem apathetic. Maybe the best answer is to make available as many resources and opportunities as we can, and then leave it up to them whether they want to join or not. Ultimately we're supposed to be an Association of Game Makers, so it should be about the game-making, first and foremost.

    3. It's absolutely fair, and it shouldn't even really be seen as a political, or socially-conscious thing, rather just a pure creative thing: The stereotypes have been done to death, and there are so many more fascinating ideas out there. I'm sure there are games that can be built that deal with running a traditional Zulu village. Or survival games set in a sub-saharan context. Or story-driven games that delve into the incredibly rich pantheon that is the African hierarchy of mythological figures. Or even just games that tell the stories of modern-day life in other cultures: the clans, tribes, ceremonies, weddings, the identity challenges that young people in these cultures face - there's so much more here.

    4. I think it comes down to: tell better stories. I know that storytelling seems to take a back seat in most game design (often by necessity), but if the focus is to explore new cultures, myths, and ways of life, then you're going to need to find the stories you can tell there.

    And I don't think you should be too hard on yourself for building games with mainly white men :) Artists create from what they know, and if you (like most of us) grew up with games coming from a majority-white amero-centric worldview, then it's natural that it will be your default when creating art of your own. Look on the bright side: You recognize it now, and all you really need to do to change it is immerse yourself in the world that contains the games you want to create.
  • Sorry hope I'm not derailing the current thread-of-thought

    Lots of people asked if I could upload a build of 6x Mass Production, here is the link to the forum post, please go there! :)
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