[Video] Game Schools - Extra Credits

The link to the video is here: http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/on-game-schools

It's quite a nice blurb on what to look for in a "good" game design school. While it is a bit Americanised I think quite a lot of the information is still valuable.

Discuss
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Comments

  • I agree this video is valuable... especially for parents of prospective game developers... I'd actually like for it to be stickied (or something like it stickied).

    In South Africa unfortunately there isn't much choice. I don't think there are any 4 year game development courses out there. I'd be surprised if there was a 3 year one (that was dedicated to game development and not part of a broader curriculum). I know things are getting better and some people (like Hanli and Patrick) have done brilliant work in moving this forward.

    I'd like for this industry to start asking for high standards of education, especially of the private colleges that have been dabbling in teaching game development. I guess it'd be good for some of us to be actively contacting them (I know Dislekcia has done a bit of this). And either working together to get higher standards, or if they're resistant (and predatory in nature) then actively steering students away. I know there have been some appalling game development courses in South Africa (and probably still are).

    (Would a blacklist of colleges be a draconian stance for the Make Games association to take?)

    I know its crazy hard for a private college to ask parents to pay for their child to study for 4 years just on game development and still fill a class with top 30% high school graduates. So maybe this starts with educating parents and prospective students so there is a demand for a 4 year intensely challenging game development course?
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    Wouldn't a masters or honors degree in game design or development count as a 4 year degree?
  • Oh Lordy that tighten up the graphics on the 3rd level ad. Hilarious except that it's real.

    Are game education institutes big in SA? Or at least are there quite a few? Blacklisting or recommending are both thin political lines to walk, but I can see where the need comes from.

    I think highlighting this as well as other beginners must know reads are definitely important - and we will definitely include that as part of the site redesign, so that new users are guided to the most important and relevant at a glance.
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    As far as I know an honours degree in South Africa basically bridges the gap between the South African and the overseas (and also adds more research/project work to it). [Edit: I didn't really know what I was talking about :)] From my own experience with UCT's honours degree they add a mobile game-development course, to add to the game-development degree/major, but also add more advanced computer science courses like GPU programming/Networking/Design courses.

    So how much demand is there for a full 4year game development degree though? From my experience with people that want to study games is that often they don't understand what game development entails or seriously underestimate it as a career (or just plainly don't really care enough about making games). I just feel like the current degrees that are only partly game-development make way more sense so that people can move away from it if they don't like it or just take a few courses for fun and find a love for it (like me). However I do say this with huge bias toward technical/programming degrees and my personal experience.

    What is the general view from more art-oriented programs and other institutions?
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    This video said most of the stuff I've been bitching about for a long time. Some of this was listed in that Dev.Mag article I wrote a while back, but...

    One slight change I'd make for art though, is that post-graduate study (i.e. anything longer than 3 years) isn't particularly useful. The reason is that a lot of post-graduate work seems to place heavier emphasis on theory, on discourse, dissertations, presenting papers, and generally coming up with "thinking" in a different way. This is great for coming up with new technology (like in Siggraph papers and stuff), but in my opinion it's almost worthless as a production artist.

    On the other hand, while a diploma/certificate course has the advantage of not having the theoretical requirements of a degree, pretty much all of those courses that I've seen pretty much do software training, rather than using this extra time to strengthen art foundations.

    So... they both potentially suck. :P For me, it's then about choosing one of them (whichever it is), realising the weaknesses (whether it's because of the system, the school, the lecturer), and then taking responsibility for your education and doing whatever you can to make up for them. In my case, I spent most of my time on polycount, and chatting with people who actually worked in the game industry. I could then compare what my lecturers were teaching with the people who were actually doing the work I aspired to do, and when I found there was too large a discrepancy, I ignored the school syllabus, built a portfolio of my own that I felt was more in line with what Luma would like, and went to work instead.

    I find it pretty horrifying that schools create these courses, charge fairly high fees, and hire people who for the most part have never set foot in the game industry, when there aren't that many jobs available anyway, and the ones that are open to junior artists are very low paying. I compare studying at a private institution, where 3 years of study would cost you around R200,000 (for fees, art materials, software), to working in the lowest of low positions, which would make you a (horrible) minimum of about R4,000 pm. After three years in the latter, you'd be around R350,000 and 3 years of work experience richer than if you'd studied.

    Granted, not everyone's got the personality, work ethic, passion and determination to teach themselves everything.

    But then, not everyone's meant to work in the game industry either.

    [edit]
    Rough break-down of what I think a game art wannabe should be doing with their learning time:
    • 75% making art (learning and applying art fundamentals)
    • 10% learning tech (not being a total idiot when it comes to constraints)
    • 10% networking (getting known, word-of-mouth, so people know you exist when they're in a position to hire)
    • 5% playing and/or making games (thinking about game design is arguably more important than this depending on the kind of studio you're tailoring yourself to.)
    @creative360: From talking to people who're in a position to hire, both locally and internationally, nobody gives a crap whether you've got a degree really, even for programming. The only thing it may be useful for is getting a work visa, where an H1B (assuming one wants to head to the US) requires a minimum of a 4-year degree or 12 years of work experience. The studios themselves ask for portfolio pieces, or games you've made, and see if you live up to what they want and how well you'd fit with their team in the interview. At the end of the day, you need to be able to do the work, and be able to work in a team. Anything else relatively unimportant. ([edit2] In terms of working in a team, that's both in terms of attitude and in terms of the work you create. Writing code or making art that's easily readable/editable when you're not around.)
  • There definitely are predatory "Game Development Courses" happening in South Africa every now and then. The kind where they last for 6 months in the evenings or maybe even a year and the lecturer has little to no experience. I don't think any of them have had much success in attracting students... but if they're going to try it'd be great if we could encourage them to improve their practices (or otherwise that they not exist at all).

    I think the university courses (like at UCT and WITS) are our best options for programmers right now. I do feel that for game development and game design that the amount of time spent at universities on practical work is way too low and the metrics universities use to evaluate practical work are often laughable.

    I don't think a 4 year university course is nearly as good as a good 4 year private college course for game design (assuming the student knows for sure that they want to do game development) (which the video basically says), but a university course is a lot better than a bad private course (again, like the video says).

    But, to be fair, Universities do produce good coders (though I think the value of good code within an environment such as Unity often gets overstated by programmers).

    The thing is: It's pretty idealistic to expect private colleges to offer lengthy and high quality game design courses in South Africa at this moment (given the low demand for such a course and the teaching skills available)...

    Though it's something I'd like to push for. I think if we could increase the demand (by, for example, educating parents about the benefit of lengthier game courses) we could cause the system to produce such courses.


    @creative630 From what I understand Universities are terrible at producing game artists or animators. Those skills are all about practice. Private institutions offer a lot more practical work and much better industry orientated evaluation.

    But many private art/animation courses are glorified software learning, which doesn't really benefit anyone (because hard working students are held back, and lazy students suck anyway). I think even the best South African art/animation courses stumble a bit on that, and are forced to accept weak students to pay the bills.

    I am curious about what Friends of Design are doing and what Open Window are doing in their game orientated courses. I guess I should put my time where my mouth is and speak to them try help them achieve excellence (if I can and if they need it).

    I totally agree with @Elyaradine that students studying art/animation should be doing at least 75% practical. I think the same goes for game design.

    Though I am curious about what @Elyaradine said about final years at colleges. My experience of private colleges has been that the final years are more practical driven than the years before. The curriculum of art/animation colleges in Cape Town tend to focus on bigger projects, self supervision and team work in the third years (though I'm not saying they're perfect either).

    Although most of the private courses in art/animation I am aware of don't offer anything beyond 3 years.
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    [edit]I... am hesitant to talk about my experiences with schools, because I don't want people to get the wrong impression, or think that certain schools/lecturers are flat-out bad. Perhaps we should send out some messages to representatives at the schools to defend criticisms if they wish? Or should I rather just remove the stuff?[/edit]

    @BlackShipsFilltheSky: Yeah, actually a 3-year degree falls in between the two. :) From what I've seen, 3rd year students generally get a lot more freedom to create whatever they want. (Although I also think it's kind of ridiculous that by then they're paying high fees just to do stuff on their own anyway. Sure, you get lecturers who're supposed to guide you and be available for consultation... but you can get feedback from folks on polycount who actually work full time in the game industry... free...)

    To my knowledge, TOW no longer has a dedicated "game design" (they called it that, but it's game art) course. Instead, they have a 3D animation course that gives optional alternative projects that allow people to create game-res assets instead of (or in addition to?) their standard 3D curriculum. Their final game-related project from what I saw was to get some 3D environment and character pieces into Unity, and have them running and jumping around. That was when Fuzzy was lecturing though; I don't know what they do nowadays.

    What I think is strong about TOW is the emphasis that was placed on basics in the first year. Drawing and photography were compulsory, and there was some form of drawing course that was required in each year of the degree (or at least the years I studied). So, although I was personally disappointed with the 3D courses, I dedicated significant time to the foundational stuff, and ended up learning so much in the drawing and photography classes. There was also overall a good working environment there. They work people pretty hard in most of the courses, so nobody thinks you're some social outcast if you choose to work instead of enjoying the "student life".

    Also, out of interest, despite the stuff I say about their game 3D being disappointing, in the past 2 years there have been at least seven Open Window grads who've worked as game artists at Luma Arcade at some point. I don't know any South African school that's had as many folks (if any!) working in the game industry (ever!). Granted, if you asked any of us, we'd say they learnt a whole lot of the stuff themselves, but I feel the school does play a part in trying to instil a good work ethic, and having lots of drawing classes helps.

    [edit]Actually, I think it's better not to post stuff about other schools in public (for now, anyway). If anyone wants to know about just about any other 3D school in the country, I've got friends who study/studied at almost all of them, so drop me a mail. I'm leaving the TOW one because it's overall quite positive. :P[/edit]

    And really, this a million times:
    But many private art/animation courses are glorified software learning, which doesn't really benefit anyone (because hard working students are held back, and lazy students suck anyway).
    ^ I see that everywhere. It's as if schools have this list of checkboxes. We must teach them software! Photoshop? Check! (As opposed to painting, colour theory, composition.) Dreamweaver? Check! (As opposed to html/css.) Congratulations, you can now work as a designer!

    Fail.
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    I think it's a given that at any school the students that succeed are going to be the ones who "taught themselves". That was my experience of tertiary education. The thing was I worked harder than anyone else in the course, and the course rewarded me for that and encouraged working even harder. If I had tried to do that by myself right out of highschool I wouldn't have known where to start or what my goals were or how to evaluate my results.

    The people who left saying "this course sucked" didn't spend a fraction of the time I did working. I'm not saying the course was perfect (it spent a lot of time on the software, which I learnt by myself and then focused instead on the execution), just that a lot of people don't know how to use tertiary education.

    That said, it really helps to have smart and experienced lecturers to look up to and receive good advice from. It really helps to draw in information from guest lectures who provide fresh perspectives and real life stories that students can aspire to emulate. It really helps to provide feedback loops that reward excellence and self-teaching. And it really helps to get students making things constantly, giving them feedback and letting them learn and take pride in their work (for any creative field).

    I do see the bigger, more open projects that happen in art/animation schools in the final years as being something of a problem. It does help students learn finishing and polishing skills (and teamwork), but it also increases the length of the iteration loops to the point where students don't get all that much experience out of it, or rather, due to the low iterations the probability of learning very little increases.

    I have sent an email to Eva from Friends of Design. I'm going to try chat to her about her course and help out if I can help. I think Dislekcia did chat to her recently.

    I think that schools do help in providing a space to share information, guarantee feedback and compete in a safe environment. I think there are always ways to get that same education by oneself, but that is riskier, or should be anyway.

    Again: I'd like to see longer private art/animation/game design courses. But I don't think there is enough demand yet nor teachers with enough experience to sustain it.
  • Great link, and great discussion! I'm going to chip in... I'm running around between meetings, so please don't take the short points to be anything other than what they are: a lot of stuff to say in too little time :P

    The South African honours is not a bridge between the Bachelors and the 'overseas' standard for post graduate work. We simply follow a British system of the 3-4 year Bachelors rather than the American system of the 2 year collage then the 2-3 year University. The full tertiary path is as follows: 3 year Bachelor and Honours year or 4 year professional Bachelor into 1-2 year Masters, into 4-7 year PhD.
    While I know that this is not what any of you are doing, I just don't want to give young people reading this the impression that one can judge the value of a course on its length, as what is covered in the courses and the intensity to which it is covered is the true indicator.

    A university degree is not for everyone. By its very nature a university offers academic, research based, as well as technical instruction. If you are only interested in the technical, or vocational training, a university degree will only frustrate you. It is in the interest of the industry as well as the individuals, to find what suits them and their expectations, and to do this all courses need to be open about what their strengths and their weaknesses are. While you can receive more in depth technical training in non university courses, the academic degree should not be undervalued. I am extremely nervous of people claiming that one type of tertiary education is "better" than another. It negates difference in favour of one person's interest. It is not the aim of an academic institution to teach a set of tools, or technologies, but rather to promote a research based practice and expansion of thought. A good degree shouldn't teach you a set of skills, but rather teach you to how learn, to think beyond your discipline, and how to apply a systemic way of thinking into whatever future path you take. This way of thinking reasons that tools will change, basic skills you should be able to teach yourself, it is the way of thinking that is important, otherwise you are just running students through a cookie cutter.

    To illustrate, and build on the example already used:
    Photoshop - you should know it by now. Really. No, really really.
    Composition, colour theory - yes, this is the meat and potatoes! but also... why?
    Why are some forms of composition favoured? What are the historic roots? What are the social and cultural implications? (of composition? yes of composition!) Why is this important? And what does the financial position of the De Medici have to do with our perception of colour theory?
    If you are learning the rules of good composition, but you are not learning about the social, cultural, and physical systems behind them, you may as well be learning composition by software.
    The exact same reasoning goes for all of the other disciplines. You want to build software? Lets go back to maths and physics, then we'll talk.

    With regards to game design specifically: There are not yet enough institutions in SA offering it. I am hoping that it grows massively in all the tertiary realms, catering to all the fields and interest; Degree and Diploma, University or Collage or part time evening classes for six months, whatever. The more there are, the better the education, the stronger the growth of the industry. While there is not much in SA, game design, game development, game art, game studies, etc are all well established international tertiary fields. They are all offered through both the technical and the academic routes, very often blending the two. Games Education is a massive field of specialisation and there is a lot on best practice in teaching game design available internationally.

    There is a massive demand for degrees/ courses/ programs in this field. Anecdotally; I have already received over 100 applications for next year, and these are early submissions. We typically double the number by end September and again by December. I can only take 30... We need more options for these kids. We need to encourage a greater focus on teaching games in all incarnations. The only way to improve the quality of games education in SA is to broaden the scope.

    Is games education necessary? For the few exceptional, driven talents? No. For the sustainable growth of an industry? Yes. Will a university degree fill that gap? Not by itself, there needs to be a multiplicity of approach.

    But don't knock what you haven't tried just because it isn't for you. Kids will turn to us for advice, and we should be able to point them toward what is right for them, not what was right for us.
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  • I think the demand for a decent game design course is quite high considering that Hanli is turning away the masses because of the limited space is her course. I just think parents are skeptical about private colleges because of the narrow focus they provide. For example: when I matriculated I really wanted to study game design, but there were no University courses on it. I studied Electrical Engineering instead, got exposed to the systems thinking needed for game design, developed the technical skills required to develop games (or figure out how to develop games) and best of all I'm not limited to only being a game designer/developer. I'm not forced to intern at a company for little or no pay in order to one day hopefully make some money from my passion. I can, if I choose to... But I'm not forced to... That is the great thing about what I studied. I also think that is the great thing about Hanli's course as well. The students are not limited to only being game designers, the can be writers (and artists) or engineers. I get that employers want people that can be productive developers from day one but I kinda think that expectation is unrealistic as there is always going to be a learning curve of some sort (the IDE being used, the version control system, the 3d modelling package etc). Whether to employ someone who has specific training versus a generalist that can learn things quickly is a toss up. I think the problem maybe that the people who are generalists have too high salary expectations.
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    My feeling is that the more creative the field the more time needs to be spent practicing it. Creative problem solving in a form needs to be taught through creating things of that form, along with serious mentorship/criticism of those results.

    Obviously there are strengths to research/theory based education. Information is obviously always super useful. But beyond that communication is a HUGE part of the skill set involved in game design and a purely practical approach doesn't do as much to foster communication skills.

    I certainly can't judge what WITS is doing. And I don't mean to do that. It may be totally different to how UCT works.

    As an employer I don't expect an employee to be productive from day 1. Although sometimes they are when they're experienced. But I do need them to be able to perform at the level of excellence that I expect, even if it takes them longer... or at least that they expect excellence of themselves and to try improve without me having to demoralize them. That for me is the biggest shortcoming of primarily academic based graduates, that they don't see how binary the real world is... Work is either worthless or near perfect, and nothing exists in between. I don't expect perfection on day 1, but I expect them to expect perfection and be able to self-evaluate. I expect them to criticize my work. I don't want to have to train them to have high standards, and I certainly don't want to be hated for expecting excellence.

    (To be clear: I'm not talking about knowing the tools, I'm talking about having a deep understanding of the medium, and high aspirations, which I believe are earned through practice and adversity.)

    Ack! I sound like the worst employer!

    Maybe it's me, not the education system.
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  • @BlackShipsFillT that was actually a very inspiring post. And you are very right.

    Only people who work in the game industry can look at an unfinished game and see the value of it. I think that the mentality of "it's just not fucking good enough" is something that we see in all the awesome* games.

    I mean there is the story that Jon Blow prototyped the entire of Braid in 3 weeks, and then took 3 years to polish it up.

    I think one of the most important things in game dev is the ability to wake up on a daily basis and say today I am going to kick ass and do something great.

    From my friends who went to DigiPen I really got this feeling from them. They would put in a crazy amount of work to try and achieve something great. I'm not intimately familiar with the Wits of UCT game dev courses to really say what is going on there. I've just seen some demos of their game jams. Which I don't know how it reflects on the course work.
  • I agree completely and utterly with 黑艦贓天 :)

    re the practical vs the educational

    It's not just making games, practical careers like design, marketing, and other creative paths to me is much less about academics and etc and much more about PORTFOLIO and experience. While I will happily recommend the Tukkies design course to anyone wanting to get into design, as it actually did do me a world of good, if I had to go back to get into masters or doctorate or anything like that I'd say you're better off working ANYWHERE.

    Where academy can help is guiding pupils in the right direction towards doing the right practical stuff like projects, as well as being put into a space of collaboration. Learning software is stupid, but MANY people ASK to learn software in an educational facility - I remembered how many people wanted to learn Photoshop and Flash in class, and later blamed the course for them not knowing Photoshop and Flash, while the top graduates not only didn't care about software during the course, not only did they self-teach the basics like Photoshop, but also advanced stuff like Maya and Actionscript.

    The problem is that while we know it's futile for institutions to teach software, people (past and present pupils, parents, prospective sign-uppers, people who would give money to these classes) ask for them each and every year.

    So, a good education in a practical subject is difficult. We all advocate self-learning, and experience tells us it's the best way forward, but the newcomer doesn't know how to engage with a largely unorganised community, even if they're willing, able, and open.

    (I do hope we level up makegamesSA in that regard and be come more accessible to those peering over the fence)

    So there is certainly a place and a role for good education to push people correctly - it just needs to be... correct! And practical!
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    @Tuism That's totally terrifying about people asking to be taught software at a course. I remember that as well from my college days. I guess I'd like parents to watch the thread's video so they can stop their children being such bananas.

    I'm not certain if I have the best information... But it does seem like the best programmers come out of universities. I suspect that's because code is a bit like mathematics in that it can relatively easily be evaluated as correct or incorrect, and so the real value of a programming course is how much information the students get.

    Also from my understanding. The WITS students who are in the game design course are doing quite a lot of practical work.

    I'm trying not to be all ranty here. I do really care about this subject. Like Hanli said. We need more good game education for the sustainability and growth of this industry (and I'd argue as well that we need even fewer predatory software-teaching games courses that burn game developer hopefuls).
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    All I need to do is compare the portfolios (in this case, 3D art portfolios). The results are pretty self-evident. That's how I judge any school that aims to place art students in the production work place, because that's how employers judge applicants. I don't have to experience a course to have an opinion on it; all I need do is see the results. How many people enter the industry? What happens to the others?

    Maybe that's the essence of where my logic failed. I expected that people enter game art/3D courses with the end goal of being able to make a living making games/3D. That "what's right for them" is to reach a point where they can get a job doing this stuff (as opposed to... starving? marrying rich? :P). To get a game art job, you need a kick-ass art portfolio. It doesn't matter whether it's a job in SA or internationally. It's pretty much going to have to involve a crapload of making art, iterating, for this portfolio. And the way I see it, if you're spending more time writing about art and less time doing it, you're strangling your portfolio and your chances of working as a game artist.

    I'm not paid to think of the socio-economic impact of the visuals. I'm not paid to analyse my mountain textures with a Marxist magnifying glass, or my lava shader with Lacanian lingo. I'm not paid to question what art is. I'm paid to execute, and to execute quickly. To script tools that help my team be more efficient. And to make everything look bleeping awesome. I say what I do, hoping to help aspiring game artists to be able to get paid to make game art too.

    (Having that knowledge is a good thing, of course. It's a great thing! ...provided that your practical work doesn't suffer. Ideally one doesn't need to make that sacrifice -- but time's a desperately finite resource.)

    The ExtraCreditz video talks about the rare individuals who make it despite going to a horrible school. Right now, I don't think there's any option but to be one of those rare individuals, regardless of where you go to study. There aren't enough game art jobs for us to hire anyone but the best locally, where at least you're only competing with other SA grads. That's really what I want to promote: teaching yourself regardless of where you go, so that you can patch up the weaknesses in your education with your own willpower, and stand out enough that no place could possibly turn you down.

    I just don't see much option otherwise. I don't see any other way of becoming a game artist; a way that's "right for the individual" that reaches this goal. I mean, the alternative is to work for yourself. How many art grads have the capital to fund their own games?

    (Well, maybe there's room for people who work for free. But you don't want to be that person for longer than you have to be. :P)

    Final note, in case it wasn't obvious, I'm talking about game art, because that's all I feel I'm qualified to know. It may or may not be relevant to other game fields. I'm not hammering the Wits game design course or anything. I'm just saying stuff based on the portfolios I've seen coming out of several local (3D) art schools, on the anecdotes of friends who study there, and those of friends who're lecturing.

    I'd love to see more game education. It just breaks me when I get the impression that some courses are taking advantage of students' ignorance and passion. :/
  • FWIW: I spoke at Friends of Design recently. I keep being surprised by how isolated students and lecturers always seem to feel they are. Ok, granted, maybe not everyone should know everything about the indie games scene internationally, but I keep wondering why schools, colleges and universities keep failing to participate in stuff like MakeGames (with the obvious exception of WITS). Why aren't the course co-ordinators pushing people to participate in the local community?

    If anyone from FoD is participating here now: AWESOME! HELLO! So glad you signed up! Join in and make stuff!

    But perhaps I can ask a couple of questions of existing students:
    1. Why aren't all your classmates that are interested in making games (which, y'know, I'd expect to be a significant percentage of the class) signed up here?
    2. Why did YOU sign up when others didn't?
    3. What do you expect from your course/degree/internship/slavery?
    4. What do you expect from your involvement in this community?
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    Is Eva still the person to get hold of at Friends of Design?

    (I've sent her a mail but she may be swamped with work or suspicious of my type :) ) ... Also +1 for Dislekcia's list of questions. We'd love to hear more about Friends of Design etc.
  • Is Eva still the person to get hold of at Friends of Design?

    (I've sent her a mail but she may be swamped with work or suspicious of my type :) ) ... Also +1 for Dislekcia's list of questions. We'd love to hear more about Friends of Design etc.
    I've never met an Eva, the guy who first contacted me to come and speak to the students at FoD was Wynand. I'd met Lars (I think he's responsible for setting the course material?) over a year ago to chat about their syllabus and what the local industry needed. After my rambling session the other day, Phillip and I chatted about the local games scene and he interviewed me via email. We've had FoD staff come to the community meetups before, I'm just curious as to why they didn't recommend it to students after that - Phillip said that they were going to the 2up Gamer Evenings and hadn't found much there (although he might have been talking from an intake perspective).

    P.S. I was asking the same questions of the UCT/WITS students as well ;)
  • I'm sorry, but this thread is starting to sound a little like a rant in places, rather than meaningful engagement. Opinions are free, and you are welcome to them, but just remember that when you strongly dissuade people from anything - you may be doing themselves, and your industry, a lot of harm.

    If the industry keeps insisting on the same cut and moulded figure, surely you will keep on getting the same cut and moulded results? I absolutely understand that is what it is all about if you want to 'get a job in games', but the concern should surely be that isn't at all guarantee of success, quality, or innovation. The attitude is of just getting someone to grind through textures/models/cookies/whatever, I totally get that, and don't dispute it. But maybe a little Marxist analysis would make for some fascinating games..

    Maybe what games need is less 'just get a job' and more 'make games'. Surely growing the industry doesn't mean just adding more bodies, but rather diversifying it?
  • Hey guys, I'm glad that everyone takes the education of future game developers so seriously. I could have used all this passion when I was at school and still trying to decide what to study. Which brings me to my question/suggestion. Why don't we as a community start doing stuff like presenting workshops or classes like @Elyaradine has already started?

    This wil probably be a monumental undertaking and it's always a huge responsibility to teach people, but who better to teach than the people that actually have the experience. I'm not suggesting that makegamessa try to become some kind of accredited institution, but rather a place to go where you can learn how to teach yourself.

    I have no idea how me might go about doing this and it doesn't sound like it will be happening in the near future, but I would be extremely happy if we can pull together and do something like this. :)
  • When there are 20 game artists in the whole country, I don't think there are enough people who know what game artists actually do, never mind wanting diversity.

    I don't think the comparison is "get a job" vs. "make games". For me it's "get paid to make games" vs. "starve and make games".

    The game industry as a whole totally should do more social theory! Then maybe they wouldn't make stuff that's so blatantly offensive and childish! :) It totally would improve the narrative content of our games.

    But that's only one pillar, right? Game writing isn't the same as game design/art/programming. Game writing can help one be a better game artist, but not as much as game art does.
  • @BlackShipsFilltheSky: I completely agree that perfectionism is something that is required, in all industries. No one gives a sh!t about 50%, the pass mark in industry is 95% at least. Unfortunately, I believe that is not an education based problem but rather an attitude problem, and cannot be taught. (Barring a few engineering subject where you either get 90+ or you get zero). Another point I agree with is that these students should become active members of the community: I know that one of WITS's students has already given a talk at the JHB meetups.

    @dislekcia: There are a few of WITS students that are members of Make Games SA. And I believe that these are the guys that are serious about game dev/design. And as educators we spend a large portion of the time trying to get the students involved with the community and with extra-curricular activities such as game jams. \


    I second the call for the WITS students to reveal themselves
  • As @ProjectX says, Wits students are indeed here. Mostly we choose to lurk in the shadows and absorb knowledge.

    However, then we come across a thread like this and we sort of get demotivated, to be honest. Do you think criticising the very few schools where people are learning anything about game development is a good idea? The generality of the posts here makes it appear that you are talking about all game development in South Africa not the private colleges the video actually speaks about. It's as if you're saying:

    JOIN THE COMMUNITY! BUT THE SCHOOL YOU'RE AT IS REALLY CRAP! Not really a great recruiting tagline is it.

    Of course much of this post is very productive, but it lies amongst some thoughtless commentary, which is a shame.

    [quote = Elyaradine] Game writing isn't the same as game design/art/programming [/quote]

    I truly hope you do not believe this line. If you do, then you really should reconsider.
  • @Bensonance brings up a good point. Let's recruit instead of shun. I know most of this post has actually been positive criticism, but some ignorance has been shown.

    I dunno what was meant by "Game writing isn't the same as game design/art/programming". I hoping that it was to say that they are different disciplines but then surely this would be more appropriate: "Game writing, design, art and programming are all different disciplines but are equally important." But if that quote implied that game writing isn't as important as the other disciplines then I have to strongly disagree. Good game writers are just as few as good artists. Everyone may think that they can become game writers, but chances are you'll be kak at it. Not every game requires game writers, just like not every game requires good 3D artists. One could take it even further if we are going to rank the different disciplines by importance and say that:

    (Designers = Programmers) > (Artists = Writers).

    Because I'd rather play a fun game with solid mechanics (designed by the design and implemented by the programmer) then a beautiful game that plays like shit. However, I find the above inequality to be bullshit because everyone is just as important and should be made to feel that way. I enjoy games with a good story (thanks game writers) and that is pretty (thanks artists).

    I hope this post didn't offend anyone. I'm just trying to show that all the disciplines are equally important and I really don't believe the above inequality.
  • @Elyaradine
    For me it's "get paid to make games" vs. "starve and make games".
    I totally, totally understand and agree! But the important part there is 'for me'. Telling everyone about how you made it work is so valuable, but remember that it may not work for other people. It may not make them as happy as it clearly has done for you.
    The game industry as a whole totally should do more social theory! Then maybe they wouldn't make stuff that's so blatantly offensive and childish!
    I agree with this even more, but it can be extrapolated upon. Why is there the perception of innate sexism in games, and how does your art reinforce (or subvert) that? Why does your representation of Orcs in your fantasy RPG resonate with post colonial representation of 'the other'? Do you want it to, and more importantly and how do you control that? (At least IMO, but hey I'm not a game artist/designer/programmer.)
    we come across a thread like this and we sort of get demotivated, to be honest.
    I really don't mean to be an arse (Can I say arse in a public forum? Fuck it..) but this is who you're targeting with threads like this. These are the people that need to get excited and make games (and will hopefully build a portfolio and join the industry), so please be inclusive of everyone. The people who lurk will not put up their hand if they feel like they will be singled out, especially in a negative light.

    University is definitely not for everyone, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with going to a college, and especially not in going straight into industry - it is important for a mature industry to have a mix of all those people. I just think it would be remiss to pass a value judgement of one being better than the other.

    If specific universities, colleges, or private schools have predatory practices (such as mentioned in the video, something that IIRC is pretty illegal in South Africa, but I'll happily stand under correction), or are misrepresenting themselves and what they teach, then it needs to be discussed with that institution rather than generalising. As @BlackShipsFilltheSky alluded to, however, often what you put in is what you get out (sorry for horrible paraphrasing). Something that didn't work for you may work well for someone else, and hey maybe interesting things will happen.

    Lastly, please don't misunderstand me about being against the portfolio idea. It really is an excellent way to showcase your abilities in a succinct manner, and the entire creative industry thrives off of it. (Hell, I wish I could do that with programmers, but I'd struggle to get it past HR.. :|) The WITS art students have to show a portfolio just to get in to some subjects. As I understand it, university (and likely college) is often seen a a 'safe', creative space within which to experiment and grow you portfolio under the guidance and supervision of others. Whether it works or not most often depends on the pupil..

    Anyway, sorry for the Wall of Text (tm).
    Thanked by 1Bensonance
  • @Bensonance, I do think that critcising anything you feel strongly about is a good idea. But I also know that if it stops there it doesn't benifit anyone. Critique should whenever possible(which should be always) be followed up by a way to improve whatever was critisised. The reason why I think that it might seem that this thread is ranty is because we haven't gotten to the follow up yet. So yes, there are bad things about some of the schools that have design courses, but what can we do to improve it? How much effort are we willing to put into creating the platform for game dev in SA that most of us envision?

    @ProjectX, I wish that people could see that they are always reliant on other people(not just in game development but in general). That way they will hopefully get over a whole inequality thing where there is only differences. I hate to use it, but they are comparing apples to oranges most of the time. And that makes me a sad panda.
    Thanked by 1Bensonance
  • edited
    Oh, shit.
    I dunno what was meant by "Game writing isn't the same as game design/art/programming". I hoping that it was to say that they are different disciplines but then surely this would be more appropriate: "Game writing, design, art and programming are all different disciplines but are equally important."
    ^ That is totally what I meant. Gosh, thanks for clearing that up! It's a field of its own. It deserves individual respect. I didn't mean that one was more important than the other.

    I'm basing this mainly on Schell's book, where he describes the four pillars of a game as narrative/world, aesthetics, technology and mechanics. There... might be a bit of confusion here, I guess, because all of those fall under "game design" (because everything contributes to the designed game experience), but in practical terms, people who're employed as game designers generally focus wholly on game mechanics (because there are people who're much more learned in other fields who're dedicated to the other pillars). Obviously in smaller teams there's overlap, but each pillar deserves to be treated with its own respect, as opposed to merging, say, game mechanics and game writing and therefore allowing one to end up undervalued.

    I don't mean to demotivate at all. But I'll type about that later, maybe during lunch. Right now I'm supposed to be making games!
  • Heck, all I want is more people making games.
    I'm sorry, but this thread is starting to sound a little like a rant in places, rather than meaningful engagement. Opinions are free, and you are welcome to them, but just remember that when you strongly dissuade people from anything - you may be doing themselves, and your industry, a lot of harm.
    Question: What are you seeing people being dissuaded from in this thread? I talk to students a lot, if I know what it is you're hearing from this discussion that worries you, maybe I can nip that in the bud next time I get up in front of a class.
    JOIN THE COMMUNITY! BUT THE SCHOOL YOU'RE AT IS REALLY CRAP! Not really a great recruiting tagline is it.
    I don't know about you, but if I was in a course and I found out that a bunch of people doing the thing I'm supposed to be learning on said course felt the course itself had issues, I'd want that information yesterday. That said, I'm not sure that's actually what anyone is saying in this thread at all...

    Are students feeling that they shouldn't post the prototypes or in-progress work for some reason? Are there real constraints that are preventing that from happening, or is this a perception that we need to manage better?

    Kinda bummed that my 4 initial questions aren't getting any responses.
    Thanked by 2mikegeyser hanli
  • @dislekcia I hear what you are saying, but I deal with students on a daily basis. I had to spend 30 mins of my class time this morning contextualising this debate and trying to explain why different people have different expectations from education. A lot of it is a perception issue. I would also love to see your first 4 questions answered. I think that they could be very useful for us as a community. Perhaps they should be moved to a separate thread where they won't get lost?

    Kids will read these threads, not just students, but far younger kids who need to gain an understanding of what all of their options are and the pros and cons of those options. These need to be presented reasonably. Some of the posts here do that, but not all of them. What this thread is beginning to dissuade is education. I had a question in class: "So what, should we just not try to learn? Is it only for people who are THAT good by themselves? And if we're not THAT GUY should we just quit?" It is a misreading of what is being said here, but it is the kind of misreading that happens. So why is that response not here? Because these are still students, listening to people they look up to, and nobody wants to put up their hand and stick out in class when people you admire are talking.

    Many of the people speaking here are in leadership roles in the community. As a leader one must be accountable for what one says in a public forum. Yes these are safe spaces to rant, to bounce around ideas, and to share opinions, but this must be weighed against the amount of pull the individual voices have. If what is being said is this easy to misconstrue, and comes from people that are well respected it needs to be better contextualised.

    A few things have also come out of this thread that I can only hope are trolling as, if they represent true opinions, they indicate a very problematic start to an industry that is still in its infancy in SA.

    While I feel that I am feeding the trolls, there are some statements that I have to address, for my own sanity, as well as for my students who are reading this. (almost all of them)
    Having an academic background does not preclude having a portfolio. It simply adds a different element to the individual's education. To practice in any industry a portfolio is ALWAYS paramount. A graduate from a university needs to have as much of a portfolio as a person leaving a college or who is self taught. They would just have done that in addition to everything else they have studied.
    While not everyone will be paid to think about what it is they do, what the social or cultural implications of it are, some people are still interested in that. Being interested in that is not wrong. In fact, some thought into how things we make engage in greater contexts can only strengthen games moving beyond juvenile power fantasies. Does this mean that every one going into industry needs to be interested in that, not at all. You can produce good work fast and efficiently just by knowing your tools and having talent. If that is your goal, then a university degree will only frustrate you. 9 from 10 people who what to go into making games professionally just want to get paid for doing what they love. But not everyone wants to do the same thing. Not everyone wants to make the same thing. Some people are interested in challenging the norm, and to do that, you need to know how it works.
    Will those people interested in questioning what they do and engaging with the world need to starve or "marry rich"? That is laughable and offensive in the extreme.

    I have been avoiding saying what we are doing here at Wits to address the kind of issues being raised here since I was hoping for a more generalised discussion rather than a "well what I teach" type engagement. I didn't really think this was the place for it either.
    Anyone with a real interest in how we are addressing as many of the valid issues raised in the video and in early posts here is welcome to contact me, or address it in a different thread.
    Thanked by 1Rigormortis
  • edited
    @Bensonance (and other students): I'm not saying "your schools all suck!" I'm saying that regardless of what school you go to (it doesn't matter if it's a degree, a diploma, or no course at all), the onus is on you to take responsibility for your own education. To do extra. To do figure stuff out for yourself too. To see what the weaknesses are in your education (too little practical work? too little theory? too little industry exposure? too little team-building? too few finished games? too few prototypes? whatever it is). Your courses aren't perfect. (Neither is mine!) But do think about its shortcomings, and do your best to make up for them. To create a sweet portfolio over and above whatever your course demands. To talk to people who're doing the stuff you want to do, to get their opinions and advice, and tailor the work you do to the kind of things employers look for in the game industry. Absolutely learn all you can from your school and courses, but if that's all you do (i.e. only the course content), I truly don't believe it'll be enough to find work making games. And if your goal's not to work making games, that's fine. At least you've got your expectations in order.

    I mean, in your case -- and I don't know you well or anything -- I think you're mostly on a right track! You're coming to the community meets (so you're already ahead of those who don't). You're going to extra courses on, e.g., writing, and using that as an opportunity to chat with some industry veterans (epic, freaking win). You're doing these extra things outside of your course, and that rocks! All I'd want more, I guess, is to see more game prototypes/games shown, but I bet you're working on that too. ;)

    I'm not trying to be a dick or anything. I just don't want you to finish your courses and be like, "Fuck! I can't find work as a game artist! Why did nobody tell me I needed to do this!?" Because I've seen that. It's... very ugly.
    But the important part there is 'for me'.
    The thing is, you emphasise that my experiences are very personal, as if I'm somehow an exception, and that what I say may not apply to other people. And while that's true, I can't overstate the overwhelming number of people who achieved success (assuming the goal is to get paid to make game art) doing something similar. I didn't mindlessly do what I did. I didn't flip a coin. I hung out in game art communities, lurked polycount, and sought out advice from people who're already working. I compiled their experiences, and added up all the evidence, and decided to drop out of my art degree. Not because I sucked at it (I was top student every year I was there, with multiple subject prizes), but because doing all the research of my own led me to believe I'd benefit most from that.

    Other students may have different conclusions. But if they're putting on blinkers, or not being involved in community meets, or not spending a little bit of time on game-related forums, then they're likely to reach uninformed conclusions, and end up in a situation worse than they intended.

    Threads and polls pop up all the time on polycount, game-artist, gameartisans, conceptart.org, asking working people about their qualifications. Many people do have degrees. Others teach themselves. Others have other qualifications. But in any of those polls in any of the game art communities, the overwhelming thread is that it's all dependent on the work you put in, and in that light the qualification itself has little relevance. If that's not for you, and your aim is to work in the game industry, then you're the exception, not the norm.
    Thanked by 1Karuji
  • hanli said:
    Because these are still students, listening to people they look up to, and nobody wants to put up their hand and stick out in class when people you admire are talking.
    I know how this feels. But I need to say this to students and new members of the association. While I can't speak for everbody, for the most part the people in the community really want to help everyone. Especially people that are new to the industry and making games. Whenever I feel demotivated by a post made here, I reread and reread the post until I get to the part that is in there that is going to help me.
    hanli said:
    As a leader one must be accountable for what one says in a public forum.
    This is extremely important. While I understand the effort here to not sugar coat things so that everyone has the correct information all the time, there is still the human factor. Humans suffer from perceptional problems. The sentence : "That was fun, but it could use more juice." will probably be perceived totally different by a inexperienced person and a veteran. The perception will change even further when it comes from someone you respect and look up to. There are a lot of factors that influence the perception of course but I can't type a whole psych paper here. (not that I could even if there was space :P)
  • <insert disclaimers here />

    I like the fact that we are stressing that decent game development education is important (which of course it is), however I would like to point out that from one of Elya's points near the start of the discussion that "development" courses are probably polar opposites in terms of learning in art related fields (from the perspective that at least half of what we learn is theory based, and more often than not there are whole sections that we cover are theory only), it is the same argument in terms of what is more useful, but is it really that big of a problem? Surely students with the drive should be working on their own projects regardless of what they are studying? The education needs to give as broad a base as possible to the student, but it is important to understand that there is a limit to how much you can teach in 3 or 4 year courses.

    Along the same line of thought, I would like to hope that we could offer the correct drive as a community to get people making games (because they want to be game developers) regardless of what their profession or choice of study would lend towards. It would also make sense to advocate the use of a portfolio (and any work experience at all), which is largely underestimated by people wanting to do anything (and everything), I have on several occasions seen people chosen to be a part of awesome projects because of their portfolios despite their studying being completely tangential to the work focus. If students in these courses make games, learn what they can from the course and end up with a great portfolio it wont matter that their degree isn't as great as it could have been (whether by their ignorance or by inadequacy of the teaching curriculum/style).

    It is extremely central to the whole problem that people see their work (or attempts) as inferior, but that to me is a problem with people's perceptions of their own work (or their work compared to the work of others in the same fields) rather than their education. Sure, a game development course could help encourage people to participate in their dreams (if you can say it that way), but they also have to cover very specific needs to be considered.

    I didn't intend to bad-mouth any offerings, I'm just trying to cover all bases objectively (or as objective as I can be).

    @dislekcia: Answers to questions:
    1. I always bug friends to join here when I have a chance, part of the problem is it is easier to get people to sign up if you have more of a personal relationship with them, but you see the people for a few minutes a day before they move to their next class and often it is difficult to keep in touch with the numerous students. (I have ~50 people in my CompSci class, of which only a small percentage are interested in game dev at all, however I probably know around half of the class). I suppose a lot of disinterest is the fact that only a little bit of what we have learned has touched on game development. Though the first years in CompSci and for our algorithms course we are currently doing there were practical assignments to make games, so perhaps because of this it would be easier to convince people.
    2. Im just badass :P Also, I knew about the community and had exposure to games from a young age (where as a good percentage of people my age still havent yet used computers before).
    3. Experience and broader knowledge, there is no way on my own I could choose all the right topics to cover to be satisfied with what I know, so I will go with that.
    4. To make games, and be driven to make games. (Through participation, or by getting feedback on ideas, whatever happens to be most useful to me at a given time)

    Also, most of the other thoughts I have are well covered, so I can stop my rant here I guess. :)
  • Firstly my thanks to @mikegeyser I am now thinking about orcs as post colonialism. This should be an interesting prototype if I get around to it!

    @hanli I find your student's view of the people here rather interesting. I mean they most likely range between 3 year younger than me, to the age of @egd3 and myself. So the notion of people here being these mystical all powering people is rather weird; given the small age gap between them and the chair of MGSA. Also, and this is completely personal, but given that they are most likely adults this shouldn't be such an issue. I've been active in the game development scene since I was 15 or so. I mean if I can talk to Tim Schafer and a bunch of people from Valve there is no reason why they should think anyone they cannot speak to.

    To speak directly of wits, and this is my greatest disappointment, is that I have yet to see students post prototypes here. I mean I was making games when I was in high school, and before I knew what an array was. I believe this is similar to what @Elyaradine is talking about. That students need to go beyond just their course work. This is what I am going on about all over the site. People who want to be game devs need to be active and engage with the community.

    There is often a cry by Indies that their game wasn't successful because they didn't get marketing. Part of that is interpersonal relationships on the internet. And this community is a great place to learn that. It is easy to get a sense of feeling for a person when you are face to face, but learning to communicate in text is a must for this industry!

    Now normally @dislekcia tells this story, so excuse me if I get some of it wrong. But there is funny, and completely amazing, Australian guy named Alexander Bruce. Who whilst at a sense of wonder night spoke to Mark Rein, the president of Epic Games, now Alex was a complete unknown. His university told him it would be a waste to go (something he is never quick to forget.) But he got to talk to a big name in the industry. And he did this because he thought: what do I have to lose, and what can I gain. What could go wrong: well it might not have been Mark, Mark have have disliked him, and some other possibilities. But there were many things to gain. In the grand scheme of life there wasn't really much he could lose, but a lot he could gain. He was one of the first people to work with UDK, and his mod was on it's way to becoming a game. At the IGF this year I got to see Alex take the IGF award for technical excellence. And that wouldn't have happened if he didn't approach Mark that one night in Tokyo.

    I hope all those lurking students realize that I have been talking to them. We are all just human, no human is infallible. You can read Gamasutra and see that some of the greatest people in the industry have conflicting ideas. And everyone here speaks earnestly and from their experience, and you should take advantage of that, but it is up to you to decide what to make of that information. You can think that this entire post of mine is bullshit, and good for you if you do.

    ---

    When it comes to game education; I am, and doubt I ever will be, convinced that there is a singular source form or way to learn about making games. There are best practise and knowledge to making games. But I believe that in order for a way of learning to be considered good it must teach you those. So my some form of logic that which not a good way of learning is bad, and those predatory place are fucking evil, and hopefully criminal.
  • edited
    Hokay errbody. Sit down, Imma tell you a storah!

    I am a rollerblader. I have skated with Tony Hawk and done shows with moto-X dudes flying over us flying over breakdancers.

    When I started going to skateparks, all 16 and nerdy, it was just something I loved doing. I had crap skates and crap scabby knees and a ridiculous grin. I would sit down when the good bladers arrived. I started hating the times I knew they would be there, making me feel embarrassed and not-good-enough. It was the cool kids at school all over again.

    One day I forgot that there was a good blader lurking. I kept trying some tiny grind on a tiny rail with my tiny friends off in a corner somewhere, the only sitting down being when I inevitably fell. Except for that one time that I didn't fall and magically sailed off the end of the rail, still upright. I shat myself when the good blader went crazy, clapping and shouting and madness. The noise was for me. So was the shouting. And the madness. And after that, next time I tried a bigger trick, so was the "tuck your shoulder in and lean left a little". And then more shouting and joy and belonging.

    Because what the good bladers did was watch us. Notice where we were at and be as happy for us as we were when we did something that was hard for us, not for them. They only judged us against ourselves, not against each other, their encouragement and joy was genuine because they loved seeing people get better. It's not that they didn't care about falling - they noticed it, but only to be able to tell when someone got better or came up with something new. That attitude has been a stark counterpoint to society in general, I love skating because of it. It doesn't matter where I came from, what language I spoke, what skates I had or how young/old I was. We were skating together, against ourselves.

    That's how I want people to feel here. I want everyone to be able to get up, try the trick again and know that we'll all go crazy for them when they land it. But if everyone's sitting down, waiting for the park to be clear, nobody gets to skate.
  • @dislekcia Dude.. Awesome anecdote.
  • G'dammit mah post is useless now :'(
  • Hey guys, a quick hello from my side. I tried to catch up with you in this thread but whenever I was about to sign in, there was another new post covering many other things, so I'm happy that it settled now.

    I'm in the staff here at Friends of Design and joined you guys after Danny remembered me of the community revamp after gamedev.sa was send to oblivion.

    Let me try to also give you some feedback from our side in the game education sector.
    We started this project (the Game Design course) last year as a pilot programm based on the motivation coming from our Game Design faculty manager Lars Espeter.

    That said we're trying to provide our students with as much external info around game design as possible. Important for us is to understand the communities we advise them to join, so this is why I'm so grateful that Danny took the time to speak to them in person. Generally this is an offer that we keep up for everyone who wants to get involved.
    SA game developement is the core that we're trying to build our education on and SA game dev, this is YOU.

    We posted a request on our website last year searching for people that would like to get involved to improve this course year for year. Here's the link in case this is of interest to you:
    http://friendsofdesign.net/interested-in-game-design

    @Blackships: You're more than welcome to contact me directly regarding all Game Design related questions, since (as you already mentioned) it's a though one to get hold of Eva or Lars. philipp[at]friendsofdesign[dot]net

    We're going to be more involved here and in the monthly meet ups, just give us some time and the students too. They're shy but awesome people :D

    btw: We're running a free Game Design based AR workshop in October. I will be in touch about the dates (for now it's planned to be the weekend after rAge). Would be awesome to meet all of you in person for this event here at our CT campus.

    Oh and yes, I'm German... so I already know that my English sucks :D

    Cheers
    Philipp
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